Australian Politics Forum - Indonesian Q&A

Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #45 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:45am

red baron wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 10:48am:

Rudd's solution is to throw more taxpayer's money at Indonesia, a corrupt regime.

As if that will work. Turning back boats aside, the most important issue raised on the show was Indonesia's ability to do ANYTHING to stop the boats.

Indonesia is a country with thousands of islands. Stop people smuggling on one island, and it will move to another, and another, and another. The people smugglers will take their bribes with them to the small, isolated and underfunded police stations on each one of those islands. Short of a network of Australian spies throughout the Indonesian archipelago, how can Jakarta stop the boats?

Tackling corruption tops the popular agenda in Indonesia right now. People want it stopped. They're fed up with paying taxes that prop up corrupt government officials. Blaming Indonesians for corruption is pointless.

The Indonesians on Q&A rightly said that Indonesia is a transit country, not the point of origin. The visas on arrival are issued in Malaysia. The boats are crewed by Indonesian fishermen - that's the extent of Indonesian involvement. Most of the people smuggling networks are Iranian and Pakistani organized crime syndicates.

Blaming Indonesia won't do a thing. Funding regional processing centres in Indonesia is pointless too - Indonesia already has two of these, jointly funded by the UNHCR. The people in those processing centres are the many of the ones who make their way to Australia. After waiting 3 years, they tend to get a little twitchy.

Turning back boats relies on Indonesian cooperation. The risk here is that with hundreds of men, women and children on board, the boats will be sabotaged and search and rescue procedures would come into effect. If this happens in Australian waters, it's Australia's problem. If it happens in Indonesian waters and Indonesia doesn't respond, it's still Australia's problem.

Indonesian "search and rescue" teams are largely fishing boats themselves. It's not like the entire Indonesian archipelago is staffed with on-call helicopters, speedboats and naval vessels. If people are drowning at sea, they need to be rescued. Who does this at the time is irrelevant.

Where they go when they're rescued is another matter. If Indonesia does not take them in, they're Australia's problem.

No matter what the Australian government puts on the table, it will require Indonesia's cooperation. But Indonesia does not have the ability to tackle the problem itself.

From Indonesia's point of view, we're talking about a few thousand refugees a year. Indonesia has a population of 240 million.

What's the incentive for Indonesia?

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« Last Edit: Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:53am by Karnal »

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #46 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:46am

ian wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:19am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:10am:

Perhaps this is how some boats have been lost at sea with all hands never to be seen again.
Silly way to run a business as this wouldn't be a good advertisement for the people smuggling trade.

These boats that they use are just old fishing boats, they are leaking old tubs that thye dont even use for fishing anymore because even the fishermen think they are unsafe. Thats why they sink. and if you thin k it isnt a good advertisment then why do these economic migrants keep wanting to come here at great risk in increasing numbers?

It's called the 'Labor Suck factor' which draws them here.
Once Abbott 'takes the sugar off the table', the boat arrivals dry up.
I'm also sure the criminals don't go out of their way to inform people if boats fail to arrive in Australian waters.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #47 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:46am:

ian wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:19am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:10am:

Perhaps this is how some boats have been lost at sea with all hands never to be seen again.
Silly way to run a business as this wouldn't be a good advertisement for the people smuggling trade.

These boats that they use are just old fishing boats, they are leaking old tubs that thye dont even use for fishing anymore because even the fishermen think they are unsafe. Thats why they sink. and if you thin k it isnt a good advertisment then why do these economic migrants keep wanting to come here at great risk in increasing numbers?

It's called the 'Labor Suck factor' which draws them here.
Once Abbott 'takes the sugar off the table', the boat arrivals dry up.
I'm also sure the criminals don't go out of their way to inform people if boats fail to arrive in Australian waters.

How is Abbott going to take the "sugar off the table"? We're still a signatory to the UN treaty on refugees. Any refugee who gets here will still have their claims of asylum assessed.

Abbott won't - and can't - change that.

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Grendel

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #48 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:01pm

Quote:

Indonesia is a country with thousands of islands, and most of them poor. Stop people smuggling on one island, and it will move to another, and another, and another. The people smugglers will take their bribes with them to the small, isolated and underfunded police stations on each one of those islands. Short of a network of Australian spies throughout the Indonesian archipelago, how can Jakarta stop this?

All the more reason to have a working turn back the boats policy. If the moochers see they are wasting their money then surely they will see the futility in their stupidity and stop.

Quote:

Tackling corruption tops the popular agenda in Indonesia right now. People want it stopped. They're fed up with paying taxes that prop up corrupt government officials. Blaming Indonesians for corruption is pointless.

Yet they admit it is cultural and they expect it will need to be a generational change perhaps several. No one needs to "blame" them when they admit culpability.
Quote:

The Indonesians on Q&A rightly said that Indonesia is a transit country, not the point of origin. The visas on arrival are issued in Malaysia.

And accepted in Indonesia. They also keep records of them.

Quote:

The boats are crewed by Indonesian fishermen - that's the extent of Indonesian involvement.

No it is not... people smuggling is global and the fishermen are just hired hands.

Quote:

Most of the people smuggling networks are Iranian and Pakistani organized crime syndicates.

Many are also fronted by Indonesian and corrupt Indonesian officials.

Quote:

Blaming Indonesia won't do a thing. Funding regional processing centres in Indonesia is pointless too - Indonesia already has two of these, jointly funded by the UNHCR.

yep covered that already.

Quote:

The people in those processing centres are the many of the ones who make their way to Australia. After waiting 3 years, they tend to get a little twitchy.

Yet they arrived with visas. Indonesia not being a signatory to the UN Refugee Protocol could simply deport them.
Quote:

Turning back boats relies on Indonesian cooperation.

yep.

Quote:

The risk here is that with hundreds of men, women and children on board, the boats will be sabotaged and search and rescue procedures would come into effect. If this happens in Australian waters, it's Australia's problem.

yep.

Quote:

If it happens in Indonesian waters and Indonesia doesn't respond, it's still Australia's problem.

But in that case they can be returned to Indonesia.

Quote:

Indonesian "search and rescue" teams are largely fishing boats themselves. It's not like the entire Indonesian archipelago is staffed with on-call helicopters, speedboats and naval vessels. If people are drowning at sea, they need to be rescued. Who does this at the time is irrelevant.

yet they have billions to spend on their military....

Quote:

Where they go when they're rescued is another matter. If Indonesia does not take them in, they're Australia's problem.

Not if they are not in our waters and not if we don't know about them.

Quote:

No matter what the Australian government puts on the table, it will require Indonesia's cooperation. But Indonesia does not have the ability to tackle the problem itself.

Which is why Abbott's plan involves consultation and cooperation.

Quote:

From Indonesia's point of view, we're talking about a few thousand refugees a year. Indonesia has a population of 240 million.

What's the incentive for Indonesia?

They don't want to house 1000s of so-called refugees.
They don't want dead people in the ocean.
They don't want to be the meat in the asylum seeker sandwich.
In 50 years they will be the drawcard and muslim people will stop transiting to Australia. they need it fixed before then.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 105564 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Indonesian Q&A Reply #49 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:01pm Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:36am: Bobby. wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:25am: The Indonesians had a good point: How can they control their 17,000 islands? Like Australia hasn't got a big coastline? What is your point?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #50 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:09pm

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

oh dear here we go again...
I watched it too and yes there was one person quite strident in her attitude no doubt playing to the people. Well we have a sovereign nation too and since they are Indonesian vessels, crewed by Indonesians, under orders from Indonesian criminals, then in all rationality they must accept their return.

The point is, it doesn't really help does it? Indonesia is a transitory country. The people-smuggling network starts at the source country - not at Indonesia. Indonesia is as much a victim of the people-smuggling trade as Australia - in fact much more so.

So you have a lot of stateless people holed up in Indonesia - they don't want them, Australia doesn't want them. The point here is that there is a thriving market for people smuggling, that is run, controlled and centred outside both Australia's and Indonesian's area of legal jurisdiction. Attempting to stop the boats doesn't address the root cause of the problem. Thats why labor and the Indonesian authorities are correct to say this needs a regional solution, not simple slogans.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #51 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:32pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:46am:

ian wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:19am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:10am:

Perhaps this is how some boats have been lost at sea with all hands never to be seen again.
Silly way to run a business as this wouldn't be a good advertisement for the people smuggling trade.

These boats that they use are just old fishing boats, they are leaking old tubs that thye dont even use for fishing anymore because even the fishermen think they are unsafe. Thats why they sink. and if you thin k it isnt a good advertisment then why do these economic migrants keep wanting to come here at great risk in increasing numbers?

It's called the 'Labor Suck factor' which draws them here.
Once Abbott 'takes the sugar off the table', the boat arrivals dry up.
I'm also sure the criminals don't go out of their way to inform people if boats fail to arrive in Australian waters.

How is Abbott going to take the "sugar off the table"? We're still a signatory to the UN treaty on refugees. Any refugee who gets here will still have their claims of asylum assessed.

Abbott won't - and can't - change that.

How is Abbott going to do it?
Easy.
Re-introduce TPV's.
Mandatory long term goal sentencing for boat crews.
Turn back the boats policy.
No settlement in Australia for those who arrive via smugglers boats.
Sell the country shoppers and crew to North African slavers.
Sink the boats.
Abbott can do many things to fix Labor's mess.
And fix it he will.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 105564 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Indonesian Q&A Reply #52 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:35pm Abbott will stand on the bow of a customs boat with a loud hailer & yell out STOP. That will do it.
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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #53 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:55pm

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Quote:

What's the incentive for Indonesia?

They don't want to house 1000s of so-called refugees.
They don't want dead people in the ocean.
They don't want to be the meat in the asylum seeker sandwich.
In 50 years they will be the drawcard and muslim people will stop transiting to Australia. they need it fixed before then.

From Indonesia's point of view, this is not their problem. I'm only repeating what Indonesians themselves said on Q&A. We're talking about a few thousand refugees amongst a population of 240 million.

The US, with a comparable population, estimated its number of illegal immigrants to be 11 million in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Do you really think that the Indonesian government has the ability to plan 50 years into the future? Here in Australia, governments can't even plan beyond the next election.

Think about the question: what's the incentive for Indonesia to stop a few thousand refugees transiting to Australia?

High-minded moral arguments aren't going to do a thing.

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #54 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:09pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

oh dear here we go again...
I watched it too and yes there was one person quite strident in her attitude no doubt playing to the people. Well we have a sovereign nation too and since they are Indonesian vessels, crewed by Indonesians, under orders from Indonesian criminals, then in all rationality they must accept their return.

The point is, it doesn't really help does it? Indonesia is a transitory country. The people-smuggling network starts at the source country - not at Indonesia. Indonesia is as much a victim of the people-smuggling trade as Australia - in fact much more so.

So you have a lot of stateless people holed up in Indonesia - they don't want them, Australia doesn't want them. The point here is that there is a thriving market for people smuggling, that is run, controlled and centred outside both Australia's and Indonesian's area of legal jurisdiction. Attempting to stop the boats doesn't address the root cause of the problem. Thats why labor and the Indonesian authorities are correct to say this needs a regional solution, not simple slogans.

Exactly.

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salad in

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #55 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:26pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 9:39am:

Indonesia isn't dictating Australian policy. They will simply refuse to accept boats back, that's their policy.

So come on, what's Abbott going to do now?

Is that so. There is no international law that says hordes of people can jump on a 'leaky boat' and sail to the country of his or her choice. Abbott doesn't have to tow the boats back. Our navy is not allowed to enter Indonesian's maritime zone (unless of course the navy is delivering our foreign aid) so international waters belong to no one. He need only 'tow the boats' to international waters. Leave them there. No threat to Indonesia and no bludging off us.

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The ALP, the progressive party, the party of ideas, the workers' friend, is the only Australian political party to roast four young Australians in roof cavities. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #56 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:32pm

salad in wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:26pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 9:39am:

Indonesia isn't dictating Australian policy. They will simply refuse to accept boats back, that's their policy.

So come on, what's Abbott going to do now?

Is that so. There is no international law that says hordes of people can jump on a 'leaky boat' and sail to the country of his or her choice. Abbott doesn't have to tow the boats back. Our navy is not allowed to enter Indonesian's maritime zone (unless of course the navy is delivering our foreign aid) so international waters belong to no one. He need only 'tow the boats' to international waters. Leave them there. No threat to Indonesia and no bludging off us.

ah good to see you advocate people dying at sea

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Grendel

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #57 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:38pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Quote:

What's the incentive for Indonesia?

They don't want to house 1000s of so-called refugees.
They don't want dead people in the ocean.
They don't want to be the meat in the asylum seeker sandwich.
In 50 years they will be the drawcard and muslim people will stop transiting to Australia. they need it fixed before then.

From Indonesia's point of view, this is not their problem. I'm only repeating what Indonesians themselves said on Q&A. We're talking about a few thousand refugees amongst a population of 240 million.

The US, with a comparable population, estimated its number of illegal immigrants to be 11 million in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Do you really think that the Indonesian government has the ability to plan 50 years into the future? Here in Australia, governments can't even plan beyond the next election.

Think about the question: what's the incentive for Indonesia to stop a few thousand refugees transiting to Australia?

High-minded moral arguments aren't going to do a thing.

They are in denial.
They are trying to avoid the truth.
That is they way they deal with things in their culture.
But with our help and a plan we can both get a satisfactory result and put and end to it.

I'm guessing you didn't actually watch the show last night... sigh.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38791 Gender:	Re: Indonesian Q&A Reply #58 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:59pm Today, I heard some RAN big brass say that in 2007 the Navy did turn the boats back....four......and in doing so, they removed all the fuel on board except sufficient for the boat to get back to Indonesia. This was done in International Waters. Isn't that an act of piracy?
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Grendel

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #59 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:12pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Today, I heard some RAN big brass say that in 2007 the Navy did turn the boats back....four......and in doing so, they removed all the fuel on board except sufficient for the boat to get back to Indonesia. This was done in International Waters.

Isn't that an act of piracy?

No.

But they did intercept People Smugglers? These days they are just an escort service. Cheesy

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