Australian Politics Forum - Indonesian Q&A

Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38791 Gender:	Re: Indonesian Q&A Reply #60 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:17pm Sooo....if, while bristling with weapons, (and even if I'm not) I board a vessel on the high seas, steal their cat, take their DVDs.....that is not piracy?
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longweekend58

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #61 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:24pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 5:16am:

Fascinating program last night providing a rare insight into the thinking of some of our nearest neighbours.

Most important was a blunt statement by an adviser to the Indonesian Deputy President that they will never accept asylum seeker boats turned back from Australia.

Looks like one of Abbott's principal election policies has developed a serious leak and is sinking fast.

What now, Tony?

We did it before okay. We turned them around in international waters and gave them just enough food water and fuel to return. It is both legal and not without precedence. All Indonesia can do is let them die of starvation, dehydration or drowning in their own waters - all people that came from INdonesia in the first place.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #62 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:26pm

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:38pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Quote:

What's the incentive for Indonesia?

They don't want to house 1000s of so-called refugees.
They don't want dead people in the ocean.
They don't want to be the meat in the asylum seeker sandwich.
In 50 years they will be the drawcard and muslim people will stop transiting to Australia. they need it fixed before then.

From Indonesia's point of view, this is not their problem. I'm only repeating what Indonesians themselves said on Q&A. We're talking about a few thousand refugees amongst a population of 240 million.

The US, with a comparable population, estimated its number of illegal immigrants to be 11 million in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Do you really think that the Indonesian government has the ability to plan 50 years into the future? Here in Australia, governments can't even plan beyond the next election.

Think about the question: what's the incentive for Indonesia to stop a few thousand refugees transiting to Australia?

High-minded moral arguments aren't going to do a thing.

They are in denial.
They are trying to avoid the truth.
That is they way they deal with things in their culture.
But with our help and a plan we can both get a satisfactory result and put and end to it.

I'm guessing you didn't actually watch the show last night... sigh.

I'm guessing you haven't read my previous posts.

In denial? About what?

A few thousand refugees hanging out in Indonesia, a country of 240 million. Their culture?

Indonesia is a poor, rapidly developing country. Indonesians have a lot more to deal with than accepting "our help" to solve our problems.

47 thousand boat people coming to Australia in 6 years?

Who's fooling who?

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #63 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:29pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Today, I heard some RAN big brass say that in 2007 the Navy did turn the boats back....four......and in doing so, they removed all the fuel on board except sufficient for the boat to get back to Indonesia. This was done in International Waters.

Isn't that an act of piracy?

Not if it's done in a special protection zone. The RAN would have jurisdiction there.

If it's done in Indonesian waters, definitely.

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longweekend58

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #64 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:31pm

Alexander Downer had a perfect solution to the problem and it would be rather anal of the Indonesians to refuse since it solves the problem permanently and costs them nothing - not even face.

The plan is a simple one. EVERY SINGLE boat person is simply flown back to Indonesia and we take one person from the queue (and there is one) and fly them here. For a couple months we will end up spending a sizable amount of money and alucky few Indonesian refugees will get first class travel to Oz. But the boat people trade will very quickly grind to a complete halt once they realise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will be simply loaded back on a 747 and set back home.

It is a very simple, relatively inexpensive and totally effective solution.

Now tell me how this could fail!!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #65 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:35pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:31pm:

Alexander Downer had a perfect solution to the problem and it would be rather anal of the Indonesians to refuse since it solves the problem permanently and costs them nothing - not even face.

The plan is a simple one. EVERY SINGLE boat person is simply flown back to Indonesia and we take one person from the queue (and there is one) and fly them here. For a couple months we will end up spending a sizable amount of money and alucky few Indonesian refugees will get first class travel to Oz. But the boat people trade will very quickly grind to a complete halt once they realise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will be simply loaded back on a 747 and set back home.

It is a very simple, relatively inexpensive and totally effective solution.

Now tell me how this could fail!!

Sounds Like the Malaysian solution Shocked

The only problem with that was the cap.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #66 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:36pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:31pm:

Alexander Downer had a perfect solution to the problem and it would be rather anal of the Indonesians to refuse since it solves the problem permanently and costs them nothing - not even face.

The plan is a simple one. EVERY SINGLE boat person is simply flown back to Indonesia and we take one person from the queue (and there is one) and fly them here. For a couple months we will end up spending a sizable amount of money and alucky few Indonesian refugees will get first class travel to Oz. But the boat people trade will very quickly grind to a complete halt once they realise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will be simply loaded back on a 747 and set back home.

It is a very simple, relatively inexpensive and totally effective solution.

Now tell me how this could fail!!

Well, what do you know?

You've just described the Malaysian "Solution" in a nutshell.

I can't see Mr Abbott doing that. He voted against it, remember?

Malaysia, like Indonesia, is not a signatory to the UN Refugee Convention.

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #67 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:38pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:35pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:31pm:

Alexander Downer had a perfect solution to the problem and it would be rather anal of the Indonesians to refuse since it solves the problem permanently and costs them nothing - not even face.

The plan is a simple one. EVERY SINGLE boat person is simply flown back to Indonesia and we take one person from the queue (and there is one) and fly them here. For a couple months we will end up spending a sizable amount of money and alucky few Indonesian refugees will get first class travel to Oz. But the boat people trade will very quickly grind to a complete halt once they realise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will be simply loaded back on a 747 and set back home.

It is a very simple, relatively inexpensive and totally effective solution.

Now tell me how this could fail!!

Sounds Like the Malaysian solution Shocked

The only problem with that was the cap.

Couldn't do that, Smithy. That was JuLiar's policy.

Mr Abbott has a policy of DITCH THE WITCH.

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Aussie

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #68 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:41pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Today, I heard some RAN big brass say that in 2007 the Navy did turn the boats back....four......and in doing so, they removed all the fuel on board except sufficient for the boat to get back to Indonesia. This was done in International Waters.

Isn't that an act of piracy?

Not if it's done in a special protection zone. The RAN would have jurisdiction there.

If it's done in Indonesian waters, definitely.

Yeas....agreed, but if it is done in international waters, the 'high seas,' it's got to be illegal. And if it happens in a 'special protection zone,' I guess that must be an Australian zone, and if the people on board scuttled, they are in our dung hill for 'special' assistance?

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38791 Gender:	Re: Indonesian Q&A Reply #69 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:47pm High seas referred to here. I'll keep digging.
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cods

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #70 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:57pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:38pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Quote:

What's the incentive for Indonesia?

They don't want to house 1000s of so-called refugees.
They don't want dead people in the ocean.
They don't want to be the meat in the asylum seeker sandwich.
In 50 years they will be the drawcard and muslim people will stop transiting to Australia. they need it fixed before then.

From Indonesia's point of view, this is not their problem. I'm only repeating what Indonesians themselves said on Q&A. We're talking about a few thousand refugees amongst a population of 240 million.

The US, with a comparable population, estimated its number of illegal immigrants to be 11 million in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Do you really think that the Indonesian government has the ability to plan 50 years into the future? Here in Australia, governments can't even plan beyond the next election.

Think about the question: what's the incentive for Indonesia to stop a few thousand refugees transiting to Australia?

High-minded moral arguments aren't going to do a thing.

They are in denial.
They are trying to avoid the truth.
That is they way they deal with things in their culture.
But with our help and a plan we can both get a satisfactory result and put and end to it.

I'm guessing you didn't actually watch the show last night... sigh.

I'm guessing you haven't read my previous posts.

In denial? About what?

A few thousand refugees hanging out in Indonesia, a country of 240 million. Their culture?

Indonesia is a poor, rapidly developing country. Indonesians have a lot more to deal with than accepting "our help" to solve our problems.

47 thousand boat people coming to Australia in 6 years?

Who's fooling who?

have you seen their defence spending of late????? and for the life of me I cannot remember the last time Indonesia was attacked...but their spending is far more than we spend.. go figure.

sounds more like Nth Korea better to spend on weapons than food.

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #71 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:59pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:41pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Today, I heard some RAN big brass say that in 2007 the Navy did turn the boats back....four......and in doing so, they removed all the fuel on board except sufficient for the boat to get back to Indonesia. This was done in International Waters.

Isn't that an act of piracy?

Not if it's done in a special protection zone. The RAN would have jurisdiction there.

If it's done in Indonesian waters, definitely.

Yeas....agreed, but if it is done in international waters, the 'high seas,' it's got to be illegal.

Not if they're intending to enter Australian waters. There are plenty of precedents for navies turning away vessels in international waters who are attempting to enter their waters.

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Aussie

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #72 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 5:02pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:59pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:41pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Today, I heard some RAN big brass say that in 2007 the Navy did turn the boats back....four......and in doing so, they removed all the fuel on board except sufficient for the boat to get back to Indonesia. This was done in International Waters.

Isn't that an act of piracy?

Not if it's done in a special protection zone. The RAN would have jurisdiction there.

If it's done in Indonesian waters, definitely.

Yeas....agreed, but if it is done in international waters, the 'high seas,' it's got to be illegal.

Not if they're intending to enter Australian waters. There are plenty of precedents for navies turning away vessels in international waters who are attempting to enter their waters.

Got some links?

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #73 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 5:07pm

cods wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:57pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:38pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Quote:

What's the incentive for Indonesia?

They don't want to house 1000s of so-called refugees.
They don't want dead people in the ocean.
They don't want to be the meat in the asylum seeker sandwich.
In 50 years they will be the drawcard and muslim people will stop transiting to Australia. they need it fixed before then.

From Indonesia's point of view, this is not their problem. I'm only repeating what Indonesians themselves said on Q&A. We're talking about a few thousand refugees amongst a population of 240 million.

The US, with a comparable population, estimated its number of illegal immigrants to be 11 million in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Do you really think that the Indonesian government has the ability to plan 50 years into the future? Here in Australia, governments can't even plan beyond the next election.

Think about the question: what's the incentive for Indonesia to stop a few thousand refugees transiting to Australia?

High-minded moral arguments aren't going to do a thing.

They are in denial.
They are trying to avoid the truth.
That is they way they deal with things in their culture.
But with our help and a plan we can both get a satisfactory result and put and end to it.

I'm guessing you didn't actually watch the show last night... sigh.

I'm guessing you haven't read my previous posts.

In denial? About what?

A few thousand refugees hanging out in Indonesia, a country of 240 million. Their culture?

Indonesia is a poor, rapidly developing country. Indonesians have a lot more to deal with than accepting "our help" to solve our problems.

47 thousand boat people coming to Australia in 6 years?

Who's fooling who?

have you seen their defence spending of late????? and for the life of me I cannot remember the last time Indonesia was attacked...but their spending is far more than we spend.. go figure.

Why do you think plenty of ordinary Indonesians are p!ssed off?

Mind you, there's a big nationalist sentiment in Indonesia. The army has had a huge role to play in nationalizing Indonesia. Their army doesn't have a foreign defensive role as such, it has a domestic role. It's about controlling the provinces it has.

The generals are still big players in Indonesia, but power is slowly shifting towards the government.

You're not going to make any friends in Indonesia by suggesting that it cut its military budget so that it can protect Australia's borders.

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Karnal

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Re: Indonesian Q&A
Reply #74 - Jul 5^th, 2013 at 5:13pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 5:02pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:59pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:41pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Today, I heard some RAN big brass say that in 2007 the Navy did turn the boats back....four......and in doing so, they removed all the fuel on board except sufficient for the boat to get back to Indonesia. This was done in International Waters.

Isn't that an act of piracy?

Not if it's done in a special protection zone. The RAN would have jurisdiction there.

If it's done in Indonesian waters, definitely.

Yeas....agreed, but if it is done in international waters, the 'high seas,' it's got to be illegal.

Not if they're intending to enter Australian waters. There are plenty of precedents for navies turning away vessels in international waters who are attempting to enter their waters.

Got some links?

None, but I'm thinking of Florida and numerous disputes in the South China Sea.

I don't think there's any "international" space in the Torres Strait. It's not in the UN's interest to have unprotected international waters.

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