Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)

ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #120 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:15pm The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, whats your quailifications to argue the opposite? Are you a QC at least?
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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #121 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:20pm

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:15pm:

The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt ...

Yes ian, I realise that and I totally accept it. I'm not about to challenge any court ruling.

However, do you believe that an innocent person has ever been found guilty of a crime?

The answer, of course, is "yes". We all know the system fails sometimes. Regrettable, but true.

And that's why we can't say that all convicted criminals "are guilty beyond any doubt".

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 137490 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #122 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:21pm .
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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #123 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:24pm

Whew, thats a relief then. Its all right everyone, we dont need a justice system to tell us whether criminals are guilty or not, because Greggary knows. All you police officers, lawyers, QC's, magistrates judges. You are now redundant and can rest easy because Greggary knows. Forget about sending anyone to prison or any penalties at all because Grggary knows they arent all guilty.
What a twat.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #124 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:32pm

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:24pm:

Whew, thats a relief then. Its all right everyone, we dont need a justice system to tell us whether criminals are guilty or not, because Greggary knows. All you police officers, lawyers, QC's, magistrates judges. You are now redundant and can rest easy because Greggary knows. Forget about sending anyone to prison or any penalties at all because Grggary knows they arent all guilty.
What a twat.

You're making a fool of yourself (again) ian.

I clearly stated: "I'm not about to challenge any court ruling."

Have a cup of tea, maybe a little nap, and see if you're better after that.

I'm off to enjoy the sunshine again.

Any suggestions for a beer, ian?

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #125 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:34pm If you arent challenging the court rulling then they are guilty and you have no argument, your logic is bizarre. I dont drink during daylight hours, its the sign of a weak character IMO.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #126 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:40pm

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:34pm:

If you arent challenging the court rulling then they are guilty ...

Guilty according to the law, absolutely. You know I'm not arguing against that ian. I completely agree with you.

My argument is that sometimes, innocent people are found guilty of crimes they did not commit.

We both know that ian.

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:34pm:

I dont drink during daylight hours, its the sign of a weak character IMO.

OK ian, thanks for that opinion.

I'm still going to have a beer anyway. Please don't think any less of me.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38703 Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #127 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:16pm ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:15pm: The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, whats your quailifications to argue the opposite? Are you a QC at least? A conviction is only ever the outcome of a criminal trial if the accused is considered guilty beyond *reasonable* doubt.
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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #128 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:52pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:15pm:

The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, whats your quailifications to argue the opposite? Are you a QC at least?

A conviction is only ever the outcome of a criminal trial if the accused is considered guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Correct. This actually works in the accused favour. Was this your point?

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #129 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 5:04pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 10:56am:

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 10:50am:

Dude you are running of straws to grasp. Grin

You have no idea and nor do those supposed 74 studies whether the DP has a positive of negative effect on anything but the person being executed, that we do know this did have a positive effect.

Those studies are at best an 'educated' guess based on suspect data interpretation at worst a fraudulent attempt to verify bias based on personal belief. I'm thinking a few from column one and a whole sh1t load from column two.

i would suggest that your analysis of the data is much more accurate than Longliars. At the least we can infer that the DP does not cause violent crime to rise as some are suggesting.

In the case of Adrian Ernest Bayley crime would
have been reduced by 22 rapes & one murder.

A good result.

bump

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Aussie

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #130 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 5:04pm

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:52pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:15pm:

The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, whats your quailifications to argue the opposite? Are you a QC at least?

A conviction is only ever the outcome of a criminal trial if the accused is considered guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Correct. This actually works in the accused favour. Was this your point?

No, all I wanted to do was point out that your statement: "The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, ' was completely wrong.

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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #131 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 5:56pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 12:46pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

and thus ends your brief relationship with credibility. 74 studies and you reject all of them because... you disagree with them. And yet you support the totally repudiated notion of the DP reducing crime because Japan has had a drop in crime in the last 10 years after 50 years of increasing crime.. Trouble is, the DP was present for the entire 60 years.

1. I disagree with them, because the only evidence that they are valid is your word that they are and it's not like you would lie to support your own biased argument.

2. I did not say that, in fact I only posted the japanese data to prove that you were full of sh1t with your notion of absolutes. You find data that leads you to believe that only you have the absolute truth and within a short time I find data the disagrees with your absolutes. Not so cut and dried now is it?

how exactly does your data disprove mine? Japan had an INCREASING crime rate for 50 years and then a decreasing rate. All during this time there was the death penalty. Hardly evidence to support your notion!

Your stats disproves yours, hardly valid when we have only your word that it exists and it is rock solid.

Mine was only there to show that your supposed rock solid evidence that the DP always increases serious crime was a load of horse sh1t. Like you say, in japan it went up and then it went down; maybe there is a correlation, but in all likelihood there is not.

Many things influence crime, the DP can hardly be singled out as the sole influence of criminal behaviour, be it here, the US or japan. Anyone with a modicum of intellect could see that.

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« Last Edit: Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:09am by BigOl64 »

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ian

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #132 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 6:45pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 5:04pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:52pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:15pm:

The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, whats your quailifications to argue the opposite? Are you a QC at least?

A conviction is only ever the outcome of a criminal trial if the accused is considered guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Correct. This actually works in the accused favour. Was this your point?

No, all I wanted to do was point out that your statement: "The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, ' was completely wrong.

No, my statement was correct. If there was any doubt, they would not be convicted.

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Aussie

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #133 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 6:50pm

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 6:45pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 5:04pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:52pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

ian wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:15pm:

The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, whats your quailifications to argue the opposite? Are you a QC at least?

A conviction is only ever the outcome of a criminal trial if the accused is considered guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Correct. This actually works in the accused favour. Was this your point?

No, all I wanted to do was point out that your statement: "The law, states they are guilty beyond any doubt, ' was completely wrong.

No, my statement was correct. If there was any doubt, they would not be convicted.

Have it your way. I did attempt to assist.

Wink

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #134 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 6:58pm Its not my way, its the way the law works. Jurors or judges should not convict if there is any doubt which they find reasonable. Long standing often misunderstood legal principle. Some people seem to think it means that there can be a doubt and still have a conviction. That is incorrect.
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