Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)

longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #45 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:51pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:39pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:25pm:

what other reason could there possibly be fore your bloodlust? you DO want to kill. thats why you support the death penatly but have little interest in he crimes or the innocence of some that are convicted.

My blood-lust? Grin

Are you fvcken serious?

You have the debating skills of a teenage girl at a One Direction concert, how about you calm the bugger down and debate like an adult male for a change

I have already answer this false accusation, while you were on the board, so if you want to feign innocent ignorance as to what I wrote I'm more than happy to find it an re-post it here.

But for bugger sake grow a set will ya, you're embarrassing the entire male population with your over the top emotional argument.

I have made the accusation that virtually ALL supporters of the DP are merely lusting after blood and death, wanting someone to die because of their own feelings of inadequacy or powerlessness. I do not make that comment lightly or without significant proof.

I have repeatedly asked supporters of the DP to make a coherent case for their argument and they have repeatedly failed to do so. It is not a coherent argument to say if someone was executed they would never offend again. That is to argue for applying a penalty BEFORE an offence is committed and one would hope no one supports that. You cant say the DP works in reducing crime because there are massive amounts of evidence to the contrary.

But the major point I make in calling DP supporters 'bloodlusters' is their almost unanimous disinterest in the wrongly convicted and executed. Most can barely rate any interest in the problems of the innocent being executed. Most seem more than willing to accept this as long as 'everyone tries real hard'. You have said the same.

Now if you are anyone else wishes to make an intelligent case for the DP based on facts and principles then go ahead. In the meantime I will stick with my belief that supporters of such are simply out for blood. I have seen no evidence to the contrary here.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Sir lastnail

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #46 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:51pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:33pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:27pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:26am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

ian wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 10:24pm:

Still waiting for Longfraud to show his evidence.

it is pointless to show evidence of any kind on any topic to you.

this is a well worn excuse used by many of the neo cons whenever they make up facts. Pathetic ... either put up evidence or shut up .... don't try to pretend you are being practical by not putting up evidence, only you idiots would ever believe it anyway.

ian is not the average bozo. When shown 74 studies that conclude that the DP is not a deterrent he said they were wrong. When shown an articl from the Singapre Law Society about Singaprean law he simply rejected it.

so why would anyone bother showing him evidence since he will unilaterally reject anything he likes. Even you dont do that most of the time.

What about Adrian Ernest Bayley?

\

what about him? as you have been told plenty of times, this is a discussion about the DP not one particular offence. if you cant move beyond thinking-by-example to thinking-by-principle then you will not add anything to this debate.

you just don't want to see your churchy pedo mates get executed which is what they deserve after ruining so many lives Wink

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104630 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #47 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:52pm Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:49pm: Longy, you're another one like your mate BigOl who needs some time in the army to be sorted out with some reality from a drill Sergeant.
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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #48 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:53pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:33pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:27pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:26am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

ian wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 10:24pm:

Still waiting for Longfraud to show his evidence.

it is pointless to show evidence of any kind on any topic to you.

this is a well worn excuse used by many of the neo cons whenever they make up facts. Pathetic ... either put up evidence or shut up .... don't try to pretend you are being practical by not putting up evidence, only you idiots would ever believe it anyway.

ian is not the average bozo. When shown 74 studies that conclude that the DP is not a deterrent he said they were wrong. When shown an articl from the Singapre Law Society about Singaprean law he simply rejected it.

so why would anyone bother showing him evidence since he will unilaterally reject anything he likes. Even you dont do that most of the time.

What about Adrian Ernest Bayley?

\

what about him? as you have been told plenty of times, this is a discussion about the DP not one particular offence. if you cant move beyond thinking-by-example to thinking-by-principle then you will not add anything to this debate.

you just don't want to see your churchy pedo mates get executed which is what they deserve after ruining so many lives Wink

case in point about the blood-lusting and idiotic pro-DP argument

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #49 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:58pm

Hi Longy,
he'll be looked after in prison with your taxpayers money:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/adrian-ernest-bayley-needs-protectio...

Quote:

Adrian Ernest Bayley 'needs protection' from other inmates
From: AAP
June 20, 2013 2:29PM

AUTHORITIES will find a prison where convicted killer Adrian Ernest Bayley can best be protected from other inmates, the head of Corrections Victoria says.

Bayley was yesterday sentenced to life behind bars, with a non-parole period of 35 years, for the rape and murder of Jill Meagher in Brunswick last year.

Corrections Victoria Commissioner Jan Shuard said Bayley was still going through a thorough assessment, which would look at his need to be sheltered from other inmates.

"That assessment will look at the gravity and nature of their offender," she told reporters in Melbourne today.

"The prison community like the broader community will be distressed at the horrific nature of this offence and we have to take that into account to ensure we provide a safe environment for all our prisoners."

Victorian Supreme Court Justice Geoffrey Nettle said the combination of rape and murder was particularly heinous, made worse by Bayley's attempt to conceal the body and the fact he was on parole and bail at the time.

"You dragged her off the street late at night while she was going peaceably about her own business within a stone's throw of her home," Justice Nettle told Bayley.

"The rape was savage and degrading.

"In terms of moral culpability your killing of the deceased ranks among the worst kinds conceivable."

Bayley, 41, will be aged around 76 when his first opportunity for parole arises but the length of his sentence is scant consolation for the Ms Meagher's grieving family.

Her husband Tom says Victoria's parole board failed him and Jill's family by letting Bayley back out on the streets before he had served his maximum time for previous violent offences.

"The number one priority of the parole board should be to protect the innocent and that's what they didn't do in this case and that's why Jill isn't here," Mr Meagher told ABC TV.

"It makes my blood boil and sends a disturbing message. This man is unrepentantly evil."

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« Last Edit: Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:04pm by Bobby. »

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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #50 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:04pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:45pm:

not at all. I would probably be slightly harder than average. You seem to think because a person opposes the DP on principle that makes them soft on crime. Not at all. I am in favour of options that actually work and it has been shown categorically that the DP does not work and in fact slightly increases violent crime. This is one of the reasons judges and other law offices generally dont support the DP because they KNOW it doesnt work,

I see you bullsh1t meter needs recalibrating.

But if you ONLY select the data the suits your biased outlook that would tend to happen now wouldn't it?

But I love the lazy that ONLY reference the US and ignore the rest of the planet when trying to argue their case; shows how weak their case is even before you rip it apart Grin

So how do you explain this using your absolute belief in this particular lie?

Hope you don't mind wiki, you're not worth much effort in countering your feeble arguments

Capital punishment is legal in Japan. The only crimes for which capital punishment is statutory are murder and treason. Between 1946 and 1993, Japanese courts sentenced 766 people to death (including a small number from China, South Korea and Indonesia), 608 of whom were executed. The death penalty is ordinarily imposed in cases of multiple murders involving aggravating factors.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Japan

and it experienced 1.1 murder per 100,000 population, compared with 3.9 for West Germany, 1.03 for England and Wales, and 8.7 for the United States that same year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Crimes

TOKYO —

The number of confirmed criminal offenses officially recorded in Japan in 2012 was half that of 2002, the National Police Agency said Thursday.

According to the NPA, the number of offenses recorded in 2002 was the highest on record at around 2.85 million, Fuji TV reported. In 2012, the NPA said 1,382,154 confirmed criminal cases were recorded, a 6.7% decrease from 2011.

The agency said that there was a general downward trend in the official logging of offenses and that the number of confirmed murders and attempted murders—1,030—was the lowest on record since World War II.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/crime-stats-down-across-japan-in-2012-says-npa

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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #51 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:14pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

I have made the accusation that virtually ALL supporters of the DP are merely lusting after blood and death, wanting someone to die because of their own feelings of inadequacy or powerlessness. I do not make that comment lightly or without significant proof.
I have repeatedly asked supporters of the DP to make a coherent case for their argument and they have repeatedly failed to do so. It is not a coherent argument to say if someone was executed they would never offend again. That is to argue for applying a penalty BEFORE an offence is committed and one would hope no one supports that. You cant say the DP works in reducing crime because there are massive amounts of evidence to the contrary.
But the major point I make in calling DP supporters 'bloodlusters' is their almost unanimous disinterest in the wrongly convicted and executed. Most can barely rate any interest in the problems of the innocent being executed. Most seem more than willing to accept this as long as 'everyone tries real hard'. You have said the same.

Now if you are anyone else wishes to make an intelligent case for the DP based on facts and principles then go ahead. In the meantime I will stick with my belief that supporters of such are simply out for blood. I have seen no evidence to the contrary here.

Wrong

Wrong

A smacking lie

If you want to discuss the virtue and value of innocent child rapists and mass murderers and serial killers; you may want to start another thread, see how that work out.

You can tell us how child rapists with hundreds of victims is still potentially innocent and so must be except and how the evidence at multiple murders all indicating a single person is just too iffy to consider acceptable You know it happens all the time where the DNA of an innocent person shows up at multiple crime scene and they were just standing there watching.

Seriously get a grip

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys, it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #52 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:18pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:04pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:45pm:

not at all. I would probably be slightly harder than average. You seem to think because a person opposes the DP on principle that makes them soft on crime. Not at all. I am in favour of options that actually work and it has been shown categorically that the DP does not work and in fact slightly increases violent crime. This is one of the reasons judges and other law offices generally dont support the DP because they KNOW it doesnt work,

I see you bullsh1t meter needs recalibrating.

But if you ONLY select the data the suits your biased outlook that would tend to happen now wouldn't it?

But I love the lazy that ONLY reference the US and ignore the rest of the planet when trying to argue their case; shows how weak their case is even before you rip it apart Grin

So how do you explain this using your absolute belief in this particular lie?

Hope you don't mind wiki, you're not worth much effort in countering your feeble arguments

Capital punishment is legal in Japan. The only crimes for which capital punishment is statutory are murder and treason. Between 1946 and 1993, Japanese courts sentenced 766 people to death (including a small number from China, South Korea and Indonesia), 608 of whom were executed. The death penalty is ordinarily imposed in cases of multiple murders involving aggravating factors.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Japan

and it experienced 1.1 murder per 100,000 population, compared with 3.9 for West Germany, 1.03 for England and Wales, and 8.7 for the United States that same year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Crimes

TOKYO —

The number of confirmed criminal offenses officially recorded in Japan in 2012 was half that of 2002, the National Police Agency said Thursday.

According to the NPA, the number of offenses recorded in 2002 was the highest on record at around 2.85 million, Fuji TV reported. In 2012, the NPA said 1,382,154 confirmed criminal cases were recorded, a 6.7% decrease from 2011.

The agency said that there was a general downward trend in the official logging of offenses and that the number of confirmed murders and attempted murders—1,030—was the lowest on record since World War II.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/crime-stats-down-across-japan-in-2012-says-npa

so 74 studies which conclude that the DP fails as a deterrent and you supply one contrary example
- Japan. This example shows a reduction in ALL Crime and unless you think the DP acts as a deterrent to crimes where it does not apply then how do you explain that? Your example categorically fails to make any link whatsoever between the DP and the drop in crime - because none exists.

correlation does not mean causation and in a case where for example THEFT has halved are you going to attribute that to the DP?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104630 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #53 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:20pm Big_dick, Quote: Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys, it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me I can debate either of you with ease - neither of you are very bright.
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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #54 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:14pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

I have made the accusation that virtually ALL supporters of the DP are merely lusting after blood and death, wanting someone to die because of their own feelings of inadequacy or powerlessness. I do not make that comment lightly or without significant proof.
I have repeatedly asked supporters of the DP to make a coherent case for their argument and they have repeatedly failed to do so. It is not a coherent argument to say if someone was executed they would never offend again. That is to argue for applying a penalty BEFORE an offence is committed and one would hope no one supports that. You cant say the DP works in reducing crime because there are massive amounts of evidence to the contrary.
But the major point I make in calling DP supporters 'bloodlusters' is their almost unanimous disinterest in the wrongly convicted and executed. Most can barely rate any interest in the problems of the innocent being executed. Most seem more than willing to accept this as long as 'everyone tries real hard'. You have said the same.

Now if you are anyone else wishes to make an intelligent case for the DP based on facts and principles then go ahead. In the meantime I will stick with my belief that supporters of such are simply out for blood. I have seen no evidence to the contrary here.

Wrong

Wrong

A smacking lie

If you want to discuss the virtue and value of innocent child rapists and mass murderers and serial killers; you may want to start another thread, see how that work out.

You can tell us how child rapists with hundreds of victims is still potentially innocent and so must be except and how the evidence at multiple murders all indicating a single person is just too iffy to consider acceptable You know it happens all the time where the DNA of an innocent person shows up at multiple crime scene and they were just standing there watching.

Seriously get a grip

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys, it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

and here is my point. you do not even accept the possibility of the innocent being executed which is way and above the most potent argument AGAINST the DP. The mere notion of executing the innocent is anathema to almost everyone although not so much in the DP.

Answer these questions if you will.

Do you believe that executing the genuinely innocent is an acceptable price to pay for having the DP? If so, what rate of wrongful execution would you be willing to accept before wanting the DP banished?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #55 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:22pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Big_dick,
Quote:

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys,
it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

I can debate either of you with ease -
neither of you are very bright.

get the hint booby. people think you are a dunderhead who in this case is utterly incapable of even entering the debate. At least BigOl is trying to make a case.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #56 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:24pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:14pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

I have made the accusation that virtually ALL supporters of the DP are merely lusting after blood and death, wanting someone to die because of their own feelings of inadequacy or powerlessness. I do not make that comment lightly or without significant proof.
I have repeatedly asked supporters of the DP to make a coherent case for their argument and they have repeatedly failed to do so. It is not a coherent argument to say if someone was executed they would never offend again. That is to argue for applying a penalty BEFORE an offence is committed and one would hope no one supports that. You cant say the DP works in reducing crime because there are massive amounts of evidence to the contrary.
But the major point I make in calling DP supporters 'bloodlusters' is their almost unanimous disinterest in the wrongly convicted and executed. Most can barely rate any interest in the problems of the innocent being executed. Most seem more than willing to accept this as long as 'everyone tries real hard'. You have said the same.

Now if you are anyone else wishes to make an intelligent case for the DP based on facts and principles then go ahead. In the meantime I will stick with my belief that supporters of such are simply out for blood. I have seen no evidence to the contrary here.

Wrong

Wrong

A smacking lie

If you want to discuss the virtue and value of innocent child rapists and mass murderers and serial killers; you may want to start another thread, see how that work out.

You can tell us how child rapists with hundreds of victims is still potentially innocent and so must be except and how the evidence at multiple murders all indicating a single person is just too iffy to consider acceptable You know it happens all the time where the DNA of an innocent person shows up at multiple crime scene and they were just standing there watching.

Seriously get a grip

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys, it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

IM trying to get you to face the question of WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS for murder and rape - including child rape. Please dont disappoint me and bleive that such things do not happen or can be prevented.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #57 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:26pm

Longy,
Quote:

and here is my point. you do not even accept the possibility of the innocent being executed which is way and above the most potent argument AGAINST the DP. The mere notion of executing the innocent is anathema to almost everyone although not so much in the DP.

Answer these questions if you will.

Do you believe that executing the genuinely innocent is an acceptable price to pay for having the DP? If so, what rate of wrongful execution would you be willing to accept before wanting the DP banished?

Longy,
Such a weak argument -
the standard of proof would have to be higher than
"beyond reasonable doubt"

There would have to be no doubt whatsoever.

That fixes your problem -
now lets get that rope ready.

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #58 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:28pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Big_dick,
Quote:

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys,
it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

I can debate either of you with ease -
neither of you are very bright.

get the hint booby. people think you are a dunderhead who in this case is utterly incapable of even entering the debate. At least BigOl is trying to make a case.

People?

what people?
Just you & BigOl & few other neocons & Libbos on here
who use that as abuse when they have lost the argument.

You're pathetic Longy.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #59 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:30pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:26pm:

Longy,
Quote:

and here is my point. you do not even accept the possibility of the innocent being executed which is way and above the most potent argument AGAINST the DP. The mere notion of executing the innocent is anathema to almost everyone although not so much in the DP.

Answer these questions if you will.

Do you believe that executing the genuinely innocent is an acceptable price to pay for having the DP? If so, what rate of wrongful execution would you be willing to accept before wanting the DP banished?

Longy,
Such a weak argument -
the standard of proof would have to be higher than
"beyond reasonable doubt"

There would have to be no doubt whatsoever.

That fixes your problem -
now lets get that rope ready.

too easy... define 'no doubt whatsoever'? witnesses are unreliable. COnfessions are unreliable. Forensic evidence is often misinterprested and we havent even gotten to errors and corruption.

there is no such thing as 'no doubt whatsoever'. Even DNA is not perfect.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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