Australian Politics Forum - The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)

longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #60 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:31pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Big_dick,
Quote:

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys,
it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

I can debate either of you with ease -
neither of you are very bright.

get the hint booby. people think you are a dunderhead who in this case is utterly incapable of even entering the debate. At least BigOl is trying to make a case.

People?

what people?
Just you & BigOl & few other neocons & Libbos on here
who use that as abuse when they have lost the argument.

You're pathetic Longy.

nah, I think most people on here think you are an intellectual lightweight. Look at this thread for example. while others are talking about concepts and principles and law you just endless wank on about on criminal or talk about the rope. you don't even get close to the debate the rest of us are having.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #61 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:30pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:26pm:

Longy,
Quote:

and here is my point. you do not even accept the possibility of the innocent being executed which is way and above the most potent argument AGAINST the DP. The mere notion of executing the innocent is anathema to almost everyone although not so much in the DP.

Answer these questions if you will.

Do you believe that executing the genuinely innocent is an acceptable price to pay for having the DP? If so, what rate of wrongful execution would you be willing to accept before wanting the DP banished?

Longy,
Such a weak argument -
the standard of proof would have to be higher than
"beyond reasonable doubt"

There would have to be no doubt whatsoever.

That fixes your problem -
now lets get that rope ready.

too easy... define 'no doubt whatsoever'? witnesses are unreliable. COnfessions are unreliable. Forensic evidence is often misinterprested and we havent even gotten to errors and corruption.

there is no such thing as 'no doubt whatsoever'. Even DNA is not perfect.

What about : Julian Knight, Adrian Bayley, & Martin Bryant?

no doubt whatsoever

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #62 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:36pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Big_dick,
Quote:

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys,
it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

I can debate either of you with ease -
neither of you are very bright.

get the hint booby. people think you are a dunderhead who in this case is utterly incapable of even entering the debate. At least BigOl is trying to make a case.

People?

what people?
Just you & BigOl & few other neocons & Libbos on here
who use that as abuse when they have lost the argument.

You're pathetic Longy.

nah, I think most people on here think you are an intellectual lightweight. Look at this thread for example. while others are talking about concepts and principles and law you just endless wank on about on criminal or talk about the rope. you don't even get close to the debate the rest of us are having.

Longy,
You just want to wank on about some higher principle when
murderers are looking at you in the face.

Murderers don't have principles - they are worse than animals.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #63 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:38pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:34pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:30pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:26pm:

Longy,
Quote:

and here is my point. you do not even accept the possibility of the innocent being executed which is way and above the most potent argument AGAINST the DP. The mere notion of executing the innocent is anathema to almost everyone although not so much in the DP.

Answer these questions if you will.

Do you believe that executing the genuinely innocent is an acceptable price to pay for having the DP? If so, what rate of wrongful execution would you be willing to accept before wanting the DP banished?

Longy,
Such a weak argument -
the standard of proof would have to be higher than
"beyond reasonable doubt"

There would have to be no doubt whatsoever.

That fixes your problem -
now lets get that rope ready.

too easy... define 'no doubt whatsoever'? witnesses are unreliable. COnfessions are unreliable. Forensic evidence is often misinterprested and we havent even gotten to errors and corruption.

there is no such thing as 'no doubt whatsoever'. Even DNA is not perfect.

What about : Julian Knight, Adrian Bayley, & Martin Bryant?

no doubt whatsoever

There are those that make a case for Martin Bryan being innocent. And if Bayley had a twin that you know nothing about then he could be innocent too. the point is that your naive believe in absolute proof is silly. there is ALWAYS room for error and errors are made as a result. You can always let someone out of a jail cell if they are innocent but digging them up out of a grave doesnt have the same effect,

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #64 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Big_dick,
Quote:

Also try to not mix my argument up with bobbys,
it will make destroying yours a bit more challenging for me

I can debate either of you with ease -
neither of you are very bright.

get the hint booby. people think you are a dunderhead who in this case is utterly incapable of even entering the debate. At least BigOl is trying to make a case.

People?

what people?
Just you & BigOl & few other neocons & Libbos on here
who use that as abuse when they have lost the argument.

You're pathetic Longy.

nah, I think most people on here think you are an intellectual lightweight. Look at this thread for example. while others are talking about concepts and principles and law you just endless wank on about on criminal or talk about the rope. you don't even get close to the debate the rest of us are having.

Longy,
You just want to wank on about some higher principle when
murderers are looking at you in the face.

Murderers don't have principles - they are worse than animals.

lie Lindy Chamberlain? I am sure you too thought she was guilty and would have hanged her.

how'd that work out for you?

what about the 200 wrongly convicted people in the USA. hows that work for you?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104630 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #65 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:45pm Come on Longy, there was so much doubt over Lindy Chamberlain - that there were protests in the streets. The DP would not have applied to her. Another piss weak example from you.
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104630 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2) Reply #66 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:46pm If Bayley had a twin - Longy - are you drinking the cooking sherry?
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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #67 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:47pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

Come on Longy,
there was so much doubt over Lindy Chamberlain -
that there were protests in the streets.

The DP would not have applied to her.

Another piss weak example from you.

she was found guilty of murder. you said murder should have the mandatory DP right? and there were no protests in the streets. most people thought her guilty. not that that is even relevent. she had a trial, due process and found guilty. So tell me again why she should not have been hanged?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #68 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:49pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

Come on Longy,
there was so much doubt over Lindy Chamberlain -
that there were protests in the streets.

The DP would not have applied to her.

Another piss weak example from you.

she was found guilty of murder. you said murder should have the mandatory DP right? and there were no protests in the streets. most people thought her guilty. not that that is even relevent. she had a trial, due process and found guilty. So tell me again why she should not have been hanged?

My next door neighbor was in one of the protests.

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #69 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:49pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

If Bayley had a twin - Grin

Longy - are you drinking the cooking sherry?

the point is YOU DONT KNOW and that is enough reason to imply you cannot know his guilt in absolute terms.

but as usual, you miss the point. what about people found guilty for murder on purely cirucmstantial evidence? happens all he time. what about forensics which were contaminated or wrong? What about corrupt cops and prosecutors planting or destroying evidence? It happens.

that's why you can never guarantee a righteous verdict and unless you can do so then you are effectively saying that you dont have a problem with executing the inoocent.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #70 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:50pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:49pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

Come on Longy,
there was so much doubt over Lindy Chamberlain -
that there were protests in the streets.

The DP would not have applied to her.

Another piss weak example from you.

she was found guilty of murder. you said murder should have the mandatory DP right? and there were no protests in the streets. most people thought her guilty. not that that is even relevent. she had a trial, due process and found guilty. So tell me again why she should not have been hanged?

My next door neighbor was in one of the protests.

and you weren't meaning you thought she was guilty and should be hanged.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby.

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #71 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:51pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:49pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

If Bayley had a twin - Grin

Longy - are you drinking the cooking sherry?

the point is YOU DONT KNOW and that is enough reason to imply you cannot know his guilt in absolute terms.

but as usual, you miss the point. what about people found guilty for murder on purely cirucmstantial evidence? happens all he time. what about forensics which were contaminated or wrong? What about corrupt cops and prosecutors planting or destroying evidence? It happens.

that's why you can never guarantee a righteous verdict and unless you can do so then you are effectively saying that you dont have a problem with executing the inoocent.

Can you read?

I said

No doubt whatsoever

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longweekend58

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #72 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:55pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:51pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:49pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

If Bayley had a twin - Grin

Longy - are you drinking the cooking sherry?

the point is YOU DONT KNOW and that is enough reason to imply you cannot know his guilt in absolute terms.

but as usual, you miss the point. what about people found guilty for murder on purely cirucmstantial evidence? happens all he time. what about forensics which were contaminated or wrong? What about corrupt cops and prosecutors planting or destroying evidence? It happens.

that's why you can never guarantee a righteous verdict and unless you can do so then you are effectively saying that you dont have a problem with executing the inoocent.

Can you read?

I said

No doubt whatsoever

as decided by whom? ABSOLUTES like that mean you ahve 100% elimated every possibility of error corruption or mistake. not possible. Every branch of science (bar Climate science of course) says that its discipline is based on THEORYS and precious few axiomatic facts.

you really dont seem to understand the notion of absolute anything, not absolute truth. How do you define ABOLUTELY CERTIAN into law. we have reasonable doubt because we already know that it is the best we can do. If we could be absolutely certain wouldnt it make sense to apply this newly discovered standard of truth to ALL criminal cases?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #73 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 2:02pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:24pm:

IM trying to get you to face the question of WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS for murder and rape - including child rape. Please dont disappoint me and bleive that such things do not happen or can be prevented.

I haven't even started my argument on who should get tapped, so Im (thank god) not the same as booby.

Like the Japanese it's not all murderers or rapists or peados.

Multiple murderers, where the evidence is crime upon crime, upon crime, same goes for rapists When it comes to child rapists, sadly they tend to be so prolific that multiple crime is par for the course.

So it isn't the one off, as you say too easy to 'get it wrong' but with a crime spree the evidence tends to be pretty conclusive, signature behaviour, DNA, etc

With all the 'innocent' criminals who have been wrongly convicted I very much doubt they were wrongly convicted for multiple murders / rapist or child rape. It is inconceivable, unless a cop deliberately planted evidence and that should in itself be a DP crime

As I have pointed out the DP does not always cause crime to increase, it does in the US but lots of weird sh1t happens only in the US so I wouldn't recommend that place as an example of what is good or bad.

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BigOl64

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Re: The Death Penalty is still drawin' a crowd (pt 2)
Reply #74 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 2:10pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

so 74 studies which conclude that the DP fails as a deterrent and you supply one contrary example
- Japan. This example shows a reduction in ALL Crime and unless you think the DP acts as a deterrent to crimes where it does not apply then how do you explain that? Your example categorically fails to make any link whatsoever between the DP and the drop in crime - because none exists.

correlation does not mean causation and in a case where for example THEFT has halved are you going to attribute that to the DP?

That is my point exactly. so unless these 74 studies prove conclusively that the DP causes an increase in violent crime, I'm calling bullsh1t.

You would have to stop the DP in those same areas and observe a statistically relevant decrease in crime for it to be causal. If it if it remained the same or increased then the findings of those studies are total crap.

It could be just a violent sh1thole and it has the DP, at best these studies are faulty at worst they are fraudulent.

At least with japan you can see that the place has the DP, doesn't mind using it and it is a very safe place, unlike Australia.

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