Australian Politics Forum - There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend

Frantic

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #60 - Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:22pm

Being a labour supporter my problem is with us blindly following the U.K/E.U into a carbon tax-ETS scam that has been proven to do nothing to actually benefit e environment !
The u.k govt has now released a report that shows their CARBON CONSUMPTION has increased over the life of their ETS when you include imports. The e.u has also acknowledged this but is to afraid to cause a diplomatic incident by even suggesting a ETS tax on imports from china or India.
The high point was 2004 when u.k emissions including imports had gone from around 650 million tons carbon in 93 to over 850 million tons! The gfc hit the imports hard and dropped for the first time below the starting figure, but by 2010 it was climbing up above that figure again. They actually have forward projections that show if imports continue unchecked total emissions including cunsumtion of imports will have increased almost 50% from 1993-2025!
gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85869/release-carb
on-footprint-dec2012.pdf

/climatesafety.org/uks-total-emissions-set-to-rise-new-data-obtained-by-pirc/

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Frantic New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18 Gender:	Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend Reply #61 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:16am To follow the two links put three w's in front.
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adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend Reply #62 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:28am Australia is a wealthy and prosperous country and has been for over 100 yrs so to say there in no money left only shows a lack of understanding about basic economics and the world around us.
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Bobby.

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #63 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:35am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 4:47pm:

Austerity cuts are sometimes what's required Bobby.

When you have a problem where you are spending more than you earn -

Do you think your answer is to spend how you are and borrow more to cover the gap or to cut your type of spending?

Rather than cut welfare to punish the most disadvantaged people
why not reduce public servant pay packets?

A reduction of between 10 & 25% would probably fix
the problem & no one would lose their job.

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Grendel

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #64 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:40am

adelcrow wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:28am:

Australia is a wealthy and prosperous country and has been for over 100 yrs so to say there in no money left only shows a lack of understanding about basic economics and the world around us.

Well done... one of the most; irrelevant, simplistic and vague statements I've ever read on a forum.

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corporate_whitey

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #65 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:42am

There is no money according to the capitalists so you want to kick the poor again...? Where have we heard this story before? Capitalists are being held accountable for the GFC, for the loss of manufacturing jobs off shore, for the disenfranchising of the working class from the economy and the destruction of the welfare system....just so you know. This is a moral stain on society and an indictment of the Free Market capitalist system which fails our people, fails to deliver on human protection and security and is outright fascism...

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World Wide Working Class Struggle

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #66 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 2:46pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:35am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 4:47pm:

Austerity cuts are sometimes what's required Bobby.

When you have a problem where you are spending more than you earn -

Do you think your answer is to spend how you are and borrow more to cover the gap or to cut your type of spending?

Rather than cut welfare to punish the most disadvantaged people
why not reduce public servant pay packets?

A reduction of between 10 & 25% would probably fix
the problem & no one would lose their job.

Don't think there needs to be one or the other.
I would support cutting public servant salary as well as welfare reduction and overseas aid.

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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Dnarever

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #67 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:01pm

Grendel wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 6:47pm:

As for cost it will take federal, state and private funding to accomplish. Only a moron would try to paint it otherwise..

You think they will all chip in to move all the federal infrastructure to the outback with little prospect of a return, you really think that state governments will invest money in a project designed to cut their own throats?

Oh puhlease what level of moron are you aiming your crap at.

I was aiming for something low enough fore you to cope with.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend Reply #68 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:03pm I gather that's as much a concession as you are capable of giving You don't do your side of the debate any credit.
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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58275 Here Gender:	Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend Reply #69 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:31pm Grendel wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 3:03pm: I gather that's as much a concession as you are capable of giving You don't do your side of the debate any credit. Nor you yours.
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Kat

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #70 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 5:49pm

Grendel wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

adelcrow wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:28am:

Australia is a wealthy and prosperous country and has been for over 100 yrs so to say there in no money left only shows a lack of understanding about basic economics and the world around us.

Well done... one of the most; irrelevant, simplistic and vague statements I've ever read posted on a forum.

Fixed.

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend Reply #71 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 5:54pm adelcrow wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:28am: Australia is a wealthy and prosperous country and has been for over 100 yrs so to say there in no money left only shows a lack of understanding about basic economics and the world around us. eg Labor thinks by ignoring the $300B it will pay itself
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Kat

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #72 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 6:02pm

You really need to get over this.

Funny, isn't it, how the only people in the developed world (and, for all I know or care, half the
un-developed world) who are in a panic over a debt which is, by world standards, negligible and
easily serviced, are the smack-knuckles from the Australian Right and their brain-dead supporters?

Now, I just wonder who is correct? (well no, I don't, actually).

You dills need to get a new act.

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perceptions_now

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #73 - Jul 7^th, 2013 at 9:58pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 4:36pm:

Australia has never been performing that well over the last couple of quarters.
There has been an excessive boom across China which has spurred the need for resources and natural mineral production refinement.

Chinas boom is slowing.
As a result that will see an end to more of the masking factors if you like.

Australia's manufacturing employment has not been good for a long time.

You're only a little country. Here in Britain we're part of a much more powerful trading block in the EU to compete with the US and Asia.
Australia will find it hard to go it alone with such a small base.
So to keep your competitiveness, attract investment you need much higher interest rates than we have.

How does Australia get out of this slide?
I don't know, I think debt increasing which you have done year on year since 2007 is not the answer.
No matter what your circumstance increasing debt is not really ever am answer.

What you're going to see now is essentially what's being going on for a while.
An economy in trouble but just this time the Chinese growth stalling is not going to mask it anymore.

Australia has some rough days ahead I think.

Well Andrei, you are dwelling too much on Economic effects, when you should be looking at basic causes!

In order to get a good perspective on why the OZ Economy is slipping & it is, you/we/us first need to have a good look at the Global situation, because those are the major issues impacting the OZ Economy!

In order to get some proper perceptions of what & why, things are changing, I would suggest a quick look at the major drivers that have been impacting the Global Economy, for much of the modern era, since say around 1800.

The absolute standouts are -
Demographics
This has been the biggest & most consistent driver of Global Demand & therefore Economic Growth, certainly since 1800.
Global Fertility around 1800 was about 6 children for each women, in many western countries it dipped to a low around the early 1930's (which coincided with the Great Depression), then peaked again around 1956, before starting a relentless decline which now sees the Global rate around 2.
With 2.1 being regarded as the break even point, we are now bordering on actual Population reductions and indeed some countries are already much lower than break even, with Japan & a number of European countries being prime examples.

So, the Demand Growth is now slowing AND NO AMOUNT OF KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS WILL INCREASE DEMAND GROWTH BACK TO THE LEVELS OF THE LAST 40-50 YEARS!

Equally, THE USUAL AUSTERITY MEASURES, TO BRING HIGH DEBT LEVELS BACK TO NORMAL, KNOWING THAT THE USUAL POPULATION GROWTH WILL EVENTUALLY SPARK DEMAND GROWTH AGAIN & THEREFORE RESTART THE ECONOMY, WILL ALSO NOT WORK THIS TIME!

Energy
Fossil fuels such as Coal, Oil & Gas has been one of the great "energisers/Enablers" of Global Economic Growth, since around 1800. These fuels have been both Plentiful AND Cheap, for some 200 years, BUT since around 2000 the Oil & Coal gravy train has started to run down, with supply not keeping up with the usual Demand increases & Prices therefore rising, unless the Global Economy starts to slow.

Technology
The second of the great "energisers/Enablers" of Global Economic Growth, since around 1800, with Technological advances being a substantial basis of Productivity gains, which have translated into great advances in Economic Growth!

Now, it MAY be possible that Technology MAY again come to our rescue & it MAY produce answers that MAY solve the Energy problem/s, BUT that would be a huge gamble to take & I simply don't believe that good Public policy should run those sort of risks AND quite frankly I think it is highly unlikely that Technology will actually solve the Energy problem/s!

So, the likely outcome is that these major Economic drivers will continue their apparent new paths & the Global & local OZ Economies will continue to experience lower Growth, than the past 40-59 years AND that will translate into a long term Economic slowdown!

That slowdown will not be able to be corrected, like the usual Economic cycle and we will be obliged to look at new "solutions" against which we will measure success, although success is unlikely to have the same meaning as it once did?

Finally, I am fully aware that this news is hardly palatable, BUT at least forewarned is forearmed & those who have a better idea of what the future is really likely to bring, MAY be able to live better with the likely new realities?

Oh & the following MAY be of interest, for those looking for background -
http://kounfinance.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/global-economic-driver-world-populati...

http://www.econ.umn.edu/~guvenen/paper6.pdf
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1372809408/16#16

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« Last Edit: Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:58pm by perceptions_now »

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perceptions_now

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Re: There's no money but lefties want to spend & spend
Reply #74 - Jul 8^th, 2013 at 12:10am

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 3:02pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 2:23pm:

I note all the austerity talk from lefties as if it's a bad thing

Facts are Austerity simply means spending less because the previous government had wasted sooooo much money

"Normally", Austerity programs are simply part of the ups & downs of the "Normal" Economic cycle, which have been a "Normal" part of Economics, for much of the last 200 years or so, of the Modern Economic Era!

However, this is not a "Normal" Economic cycle, owing to the prolonged impacts of Demographics, Energy Shortages/Price increases & Climate Change!

Therefore the "Normal" across the board Austerity programs are (think Europe)/would be (think Australia, the USA & elsewhere) absolutely the wrong thing, at absolutely the wrong time! Indeed, many of the "Normal" Economic fixes applied via both the Austrian & Keynesian Economic schools of thought, which have previously been successfully used, will now prove to be largely ineffective

That said, targeted change, to reduce expenses & primary consideration going to improving Productivity, is absolutely the correct thing, as this once in history combination of Economic drivers will continue to impact on us Locally & Globally, for decades to come.

WE NEED NEW APPROACHES/SOLUTIONS TO THESE PROBLEMS, WHICH ARE FAR FROM "NORMAL"!

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1372809408/16#16

No response Maqqa!

Because, you know what I'm saying is correct?

Or because, as usual, you simply have NFI what is actually driving Economics and nor do the Liberals or Labor!
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1373084587/73#73

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Poll
Question: Who wasted the most amount of money in government?
Howard on middle class welfare 1 (8.3%) Howard on handouts to the middle class 0 (0.0%) Howard trying to buy votes 0 (0.0%) All of the above 11 (91.7%) Total votes: 12 « Created by: skippy. on: Jul 6^th, 2013 at 6:08pm »