Australian Politics Forum - Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims

freediver

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Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Jul 14^th, 2013 at 9:35pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:20pm:

Quote:

The messenger of allah said-

I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:52pm:

Quote:

I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75

Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:52pm:

Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?

My understanding is this included only the Hijaz. Jews however continued to live in Khaybar and Yemen - amazingly enough jews live in Yemen to this day. Christians continued to hang around the region too.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 7:00pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:52pm:

Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?

My understanding is this included only the Hijaz. Jews however continued to live in Khaybar and Yemen - amazingly enough jews live in Yemen to this day. Christians continued to hang around the region too.

Are you saying that Muhammed only commanded the expulsion of non-Muslims from the Hijaz area, of that he only succeeded in cleansing the Hijaz area?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 8:02pm:

Check the quote again - you'll find it wasn't a command. If indeed its even authentic. And besides, it wasn't something that was achieved during his lifetime.

Look at the Charter of Medina - not exactly a portent to expulsion is it? If the prophet did resolve to remove all non-muslims from the Hijaz, its only because his hand was forced. Non-muslims were certainly given every opportunity to live in peace with the muslims.

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 7:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:52pm:

[quote]I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.

Have to wonder why you didn't post the whole hadeeth. Is it because you wish to deceive?

Quote:

Umar narrated the Messenger of God said: "I (Umar) will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim."

Sounds like a prophesy.

A command would be more like: "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) must expel the Jews and Christians..." or "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) should expel the Jews and Christians..."

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 8:24pm:

What exactly are you accusing me of leaving out?

Are Muslims so mindlessly fatalistic that they would reject even Muhammed's ability to influence historical events?

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 8:24pm:

What exactly are you accusing me of leaving out?

You left out the part that Umar was speaking about a prophesy regarding himself. By leaving out who was narrating the hadeeth, how are people to know who was saying "I will"?

So let me get this straight. Muhammed "predicted" that Umar would ethnically cleanse a huge area of Arabia. He told Umar that this was going to happen. Lo and behold, all the Christians, Jews and Pagans misbehaved, forcing Umar to cleans the area of all non-Muslims. And of course Muhammed, Umar and all the other Muslims who carried out the ethnic cleansing predicted by Muhammed are blameless because it was a prediction, not an order?

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #1 - Jul 14^th, 2013 at 10:09pm

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

...And of course Muhammed, Umar and all the other Muslims who carried out the ethnic cleansing predicted by Muhammed are blameless because it was a prediction, not an order?

You do realise that you are talking about an event that happened many years after the prophet had passed away?

The events must be looked at in the context of Umar's Caliphate in the middle of the 7th century.

During the Caliphate of Umar the circumstances that had forced Jews to emigrate to Arabia in the first place had changed.

Umar liberated nearly all of the Middle East from the Byzantine and Persian Empires. Jews were therefore free to live in places like Jerusalem that they had been denied for 6 centuries.

Umar was far from a Jew-hater, initiating an old-age pension system for Jews in the Islamic state during his rule.

Umar expelled the Jews of Khyber to Syria only after they had broken the treaty that had allowed them to stay there. The Jews had attacked and wounded Umar's son who had been sent to collect revenue from state-owned farms in the area. They had previously broken numerous treaties. Umar was known to be a very strict man, and did not permit treaty violations.

The expulsion of the Christians of Najran to Iraq also only occurred after the Christians violated a peace treaty. The treaty stipulated that the Christian community in Najran would refrain from dealing in usury. The Christians of Najran did not keep their end of the bargain, and Umar subsequently expelled them to Iraq. Umar gave them a two year exemption from paying taxes to make the move easier.

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Yadda

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #2 - Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:13pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

...And of course Muhammed, Umar and all the other Muslims who carried out the ethnic cleansing predicted by Muhammed are blameless because it was a prediction, not an order?

You do realise that you are talking about an event that happened many years after the prophet had passed away?

The events must be looked at in the context of Umar's Caliphate in the middle of the 7th century.

During the Caliphate of Umar the circumstances that had forced Jews to emigrate to Arabia in the first place had changed.

Umar liberated nearly all of the Middle East from the Byzantine and Persian Empires. Jews were therefore free to live in places like Jerusalem that they had been denied for 6 centuries.

Umar was far from a Jew-hater, initiating an old-age pension system for Jews in the Islamic state during his rule.

Umar expelled the Jews of Khyber to Syria only after they had broken the treaty that had allowed them to stay there. The Jews had attacked and wounded Umar's son who had been sent to collect revenue from state-owned farms in the area. They had previously broken numerous treaties. Umar was known to be a very strict man, and did not permit treaty violations.

The expulsion of the Christians of Najran to Iraq also only occurred after the Christians violated a peace treaty. The treaty stipulated that the Christian community in Najran would refrain from dealing in usury. The Christians of Najran did not keep their end of the bargain, and Umar subsequently expelled them to Iraq. Umar gave them a two year exemption from paying taxes to make the move easier.

Q.
Where do moslems learn all of this guff ?

A.
ISLAMIC schools.

It beats engineering, physics, astronomy, logic, and ethics. Tongue

i
Google;
australian taxpayers funding islamic schools in indonesia

Dumb!!!!

Dumb!!!! Dumb!!!! Dumb!!!!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #3 - Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:45pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:13pm:

Google;
australian taxpayers funding islamic schools in indonesia

Dumb!!!!

Dumb!!!! Dumb!!!! Dumb!!!!

Another John Howard Liberal Government initiative.
(Hey, wasn't Tony Abbott part of that?)

Liberal Party/Tony Abbott jizya!

Allahu akbar!

Quote:

Media Release

12 July 2006

Australia to fund construction of 2000 schools in Indonesia

Australia and Indonesia today signed agreements totalling AUD$355 million to build and extend about 2000 schools in Eastern Indonesia over the next three years. This major initiative will also help to enhance education quality and improve education management.

The Australian-funded program will include public junior secondary schools as well as Islamic junior secondary schools. Schools will be built by local tradespeople using locally-supplied construction materials.

The agreements signed today comprise AUD$200 million of loans and AUD$155 million of grants from the Australia Indonesia Partnership.

“The signing of these agreements reaffirms Australia’s commitment to work with the Indonesian Government and local communities to build new junior secondary schools and improve the quality of education in Indonesia,” said Australian Ambassador, Bill Farmer.

“This program will support Indonesia’s education strategy to provide universal basic education. Increasing access to education through the construction of new junior secondary facilities, particularly in poor areas, is a priority,” said the Ambassador.

“Australia is pleased to be working with Indonesia in providing funds for both public and Islamic schools”.

The selection of sites to build and extend schools will be based on assessment of needs and community involvement.

Australian assistance to Indonesian education currently includes programs aimed at strengthening school and community governance and management systems, as well as improved classroom teaching and learning, mainly in poor areas of Eastern Indonesia. In Aceh, Australian activities include rebuilding of public and Islamic schools damaged in the 2004 earthquake and tsunami.

Further information:
Mia Salim (AusAID Public Affairs) – 2550-5490 / 0812 1070237

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« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm by True Colours »

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Yadda

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #4 - Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:45pm:

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:13pm:

Google;
australian taxpayers funding islamic schools in indonesia

Dumb!!!!

Dumb!!!! Dumb!!!! Dumb!!!!

Another John Howard Liberal Government initiative.

True!

And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow, John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it!
[....not for the funding of ISLAMIC schools in Indonesia, but for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah.]

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« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:58pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #5 - Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:58pm damn - I always suspected Howard was a closet muslim.
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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #6 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 12:16am

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow...

Tomorrow! I think you're getting a bit ahead of schedule there Yadda. Doubt it could be done before next week at the earliest.

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it!
... for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah.

Perhaps - but lest we forget the crimes that he committed against his own people. Perhaps a Mussolini-type ending would be more befitting.

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Yadda

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #7 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 12:20am

True Colours wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow...

Tomorrow! I think you're getting a bit ahead of schedule there Yadda. Doubt it could be done before next week at the earliest.

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it!
... for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah.

Perhaps - but lest we forget the crimes that he committed against his own people. Perhaps a Mussolini-type ending would be more befitting.

[I just wanted to 'lock' that reply in.]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #8 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 1:03am

Yadda wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 12:20am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow...

Tomorrow! I think you're getting a bit ahead of schedule there Yadda. Doubt it could be done before next week at the earliest.

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it!
... for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah.

Perhaps - but lest we forget the crimes that he committed against his own people. Perhaps a Mussolini-type ending would be more befitting.

[I just wanted to 'lock' that reply in.]

No need. I will reiterate for you: Howard is to Australia what Mussolini was to Italy...maybe Abbott will try to top him and go for Hitler.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #9 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 7:04pm TC, what other Australian leaders do you think deserve a similar fate? How successful was Umar's ethnic cleansing?
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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #10 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 9:01pm

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 7:04pm:

TC, what other Australian leaders do you think deserve a similar fate?

Howard is the biggest traitor this country has had since Kerr. If an angry mob strung him up I wouldn't shed any tears for him.

If there was real justice in this country, Howard would be charged with war crimes.

Somebody who has killed as many innocent people and children as Howard has should be prosecuted.

Now that you mention it, Menzies was a massive traitor too sending off Australian troops to protect England when Australia faced a threat at home from Japan.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 7:04pm:

How successful was Umar's ethnic cleansing?

Let's face it, minorities were treated much better in Umar's Caliphate than they were in Christian Europe at the time. In Christian Europe, Jews for example, faced restrictions on occupations, land ownership and travel.

Jews were fully expelled from many countries in Christian Europe; England, France, Germany, Spain and Portugal all fully expelled all Jews from their countries in medieval times .

'Umar did not expel Jews or Christians from his state. Those groups who kept their words and treaties were protected by the Islamic state.

Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle:

Quote:

“Whoever kills a person protected by a treaty will never smell the fragrance of Paradise, and indeed its fragrance can be found a distance of forty years of travel.”

-Bukhari

Quote:

“Whoever kills someone among the people with whom there is a covenant, then he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise even though it can be found after forty years of travel.”

-al-Nisai

When a small tribe of Jews reneged against a treaty that they had made with the Islamic state, 'Umar was quite merciful by contemporary standards. Under any contemporary non-Muslim regimes such renegades would probably have all been enslaved or put to death. Umar spared them the vengeance that was common in those times, and only ordered them to move from the Hijaz, and it was negotiated that they be resettled in the neighbouring Levant region.

Other Jewish tribes and communities in the Islamic state such as those in Yemen were unaffected by the breaking of the treaty.

The Hijaz is an area not much bigger than Victoria. The Islamic state at the time of Umar's rule was about the same size as Australia. Jews and Christians were free to travel through all of the state except the holy sites of Mecca and Madina

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« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:08pm by True Colours »

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Lionel Edriess

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #11 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 9:52pm

Interesting!

Now please explain the differences between Taqyiia and Kitman.

I merely wish to know into which folder I need to place your non-answers.

As Islam is the only true religion, I wish to know how my children may co-exist amongst the followers of the 'Religion of Peace'.

Assuming, of course, that they follow their father into his ex-Catholic agnosticism.

Will they have a place in an Islamic Australia?

And what would that be?

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Toughen up, Australia!

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freediver

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #12 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm

So Howard, Menzies and Kerr - any others?

Quote:

'Umar did not expel Jews or Christians from his state. Those groups who kept their words and treaties were protected by the Islamic state.

So it is just a coincidence that every group of non-Muslims in the area in question ended up getting kicked out?

Quote:

Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle

Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty?

Quote:

Other Jewish tribes and communities in the Islamic state such as those in Yemen were unaffected by the breaking of the treaty.

So what was the extent of the ethnic cleansing?

Quote:

The Hijaz is an area not much bigger than Victoria.

Were all non-Muslims evicted from this area?

Quote:

The Islamic state at the time of Umar's rule was about the same size as Australia. Jews and Christians were free to travel through all of the state except the holy sites of Mecca and Madina

Could they travel to the Hijaz?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #13 - Jul 15^th, 2013 at 11:37pm

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

Interesting!

Now please explain the differences between Taqyiia and Kitman.

Taqiya is a principle of the minority Shi-ite sect. The majority of mainstream Muslim - e.g.. the 90% who are called sunnis - do not believe in this practice. In fact it is considered a grave sin to deny being a Muslim. The only exception is compulsion under the threat of death. A Muslim can deny Islam if a sword is placed over his neck. This is reported to have happened during the Spanish Inquisitions when some Spanish Muslims who faced death pretended to be Christians. Catholic authorities in Spain began to suspect that not all Jewish and Muslim converts were sincere and began torturing and killing people for even the smallest sign of being non-Christian such as bathing on Friday (the Muslim holy day).

The Quran and hadeeth repeatedly stress the importance of truthfulness:

Quote:

“O you who believe! Have fear of God, and be among the truthful.”

- the Quran, al-Tawbah v.119]

Quote:

“The Messenger of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘You must be truthful, for truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man will keep speaking the truth and striving to speak the truth until he will be recorded with God as a speaker of the truth. Beware of telling lies, for lying leads to immorality and immorality leads to Hellfire. A man will keep telling lies and striving to tell lies until he is recorded with God as a liar.”

- Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

‘Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt, for truthfulness is certainty and tranquillity, whilst lying is doubt and confusion.”

- al-Tirmidhi

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

As Islam is the only true religion, I wish to know how my children may co-exist amongst the followers of the 'Religion of Peace'.

Assuming, of course, that they follow their father into his ex-Catholic agnosticism.

Will they have a place in an Islamic Australia?

And what would that be?

I am amazed that you ask such a question considering that the Muslim population in this country is only 2%. Perhaps you should ask yourself what makes Islam such a powerful force - is its commandments to do good and be honest and truthful? Is it the monotheistic nature of Islam?

Quote:

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers."

- The Quran, al-Mumtahinah, v. 8

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #14 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 12:05am True Colours wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 1:03am: No need. I will reiterate for you: Howard is to Australia what Mussolini was to Italy...maybe Abbott will try to top him and go for Hitler. You are insane.
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