Australian Politics Forum - Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims

True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #15 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:11am

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

So Howard, Menzies and Kerr - any others?

Any other what? Traitors? There are probably a few more. Why has Rupert Murdoch got US citizenship? Who is Andrew Bolt working for?

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote:

'Umar did not expel Jews or Christians from his state. Those groups who kept their words and treaties were protected by the Islamic state.

So it is just a coincidence that every group of non-Muslims in the area in question ended up getting kicked out?

Well that would depend who you ask I suppose - Muslims don't really believe in coincidence; whatever transpires must suely be part of God's great plan.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote:

Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle

Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty?

I am not of any.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote:

Other Jewish tribes and communities in the Islamic state such as those in Yemen were unaffected by the breaking of the treaty.

So what was the extent of the ethnic cleansing?

It is a bit of a stretch to call the resettlement of a small tribe 'ethnic cleansing' - particularly as the resettlement occurred due to their actions (breaking a peace treaty) not their religion. If it were ethnic cleansing, why not remove all the Jews in Arabia? Only those who broke the treaty were resettled.

Ethnicity was not even a consideration, as those jews from the renegade tribe who had converted to Islam were allowed to stay and accepted as valuable members of the Muslim community.

Compare that to the treatment of American Indians and Australian Aborigines who even when they converted to Christianity were still rounded up and put into concentration camps/missions/stations and then forced to do unpaid work. Umar's caliphate was more just than the the American or Australian governments when they are at war.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote:

The Hijaz is an area not much bigger than Victoria.

Were all non-Muslims evicted from this area?

By the time Umar became Caliph, the whole of Hijaz had already long converted to Islam. There was only one small Jewish tribe at Khyber. There was also a small Christian community in Najran that had been almost wiped out by in a massacre conducted by Yemeni Jews more than a century earlier. Both these communities had made treaties with the Islamic state, both broke the treaties, and Umar decided to resettle them in order to secure the Islamic capital.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote:

The Islamic state at the time of Umar's rule was about the same size as Australia. Jews and Christians were free to travel through all of the state except the holy sites of Mecca and Madina

Could they travel to the Hijaz?

Of course. They used to even visit Madina when on official business - e.g. those living in the Islamic state would come to Madina to petition Umar. Non-Muslim emissaries were also known to visit Madina itself.

There are non-Muslims including Australians working in the Hijaz today.

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It_is_the_Darkness Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4000 in a ReTardis Gender:	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #16 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:25am
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freediver

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #17 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:09am

Quote:

‘Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt, for truthfulness is certainty and tranquillity, whilst lying is doubt and confusion.”

- al-Tirmidhi

Can you explain what this is referring to?

Quote:

Any other what? Traitors? There are probably a few more. Why has Rupert Murdoch got US citizenship? Who is Andrew Bolt working for?

I think Andrew Bolt works for The Australian. Does that make him a traitor?

Quote:

Well that would depend who you ask I suppose - Muslims don't really believe in coincidence; whatever transpires must suely be part of God's great plan.

It seems like a large area. You have explained that two of the non-Muslim tribes transgressed somehow, so deserved to be kicked out and were lucky not to have been slaughtered by Muslims. Were there any others?

Is this the area?

Quote:

It is a bit of a stretch to call the resettlement of a small tribe 'ethnic cleansing'

Is that all it took to make the entire area Muslim-only? How long after Mo's death was this?

Quote:

It is a bit of a stretch to call the resettlement of a small tribe 'ethnic cleansing' - particularly as the resettlement occurred due to their actions (breaking a peace treaty) not their religion. If it were ethnic cleansing, why not remove all the Jews in Arabia? Only those who broke the treaty were resettled.

Ethnicity was not even a consideration, as those jews from the renegade tribe who had converted to Islam were allowed to stay and accepted as valuable members of the Muslim community.

So it was neither ethnicity or religion that saw the whole group forcibly evicted?

Quote:

Compare that to the treatment of American Indians and Australian Aborigines who even when they converted to Christianity were still rounded up and put into concentration camps/missions/stations and then forced to do unpaid work. Umar's caliphate was more just than the the American or Australian governments when they are at war.

So the Caliphate had no slaves?

Quote:

By the time Umar became Caliph, the whole of Hijaz had already long converted to Islam.

Voluntarily? When was this? Umar appears to say that Mo predicted it and told him in person. That seems like a short time to me.

Quote:

Of course. They used to even visit Madina when on official business - e.g. those living in the Islamic state would come to Madina to petition Umar. Non-Muslim emissaries were also known to visit Madina itself.

Were non-Muslims forbidden in Mecca at this time?

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Yadda

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #18 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 10:26am

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:11am:

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote:

Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle

Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty?

I am not [aware] of any.

Then you are not aware TC.

Moslem 'peace' treaties with unbelievers, are mandated to be made, only because of moslem [military] weakness.

And during the period of a truce with disbelievers, as soon as moslems are again strong enough to re-engage in warfare 'struggle' against the disbelievers, the moslems are then obligated [by their religion] to 'set aside' their truce with the disbelievers.

All truces with disbelievers are made [by moslems], only, because such a truce is advantageous to the moslems, and such a truce is not being offered because moslems are willing to accept any long term peaceful co-existence, with any person who is a [independent from ISLAM] disbeliever.

Google;
hudaibiyah, period of treaty

as per being revealed by this moslem scholar......

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain.
Polite and softly spoken....
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #19 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 12:39pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:11am:

By the time Umar became Caliph, the whole of Hijaz had already long converted to Islam. There was only one small Jewish tribe at Khyber.

Do you think anyone will believe your lies?

Quote:

Umar bin Al Khattab expelled all the jews and christians from the land of Hijaz.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/57/60

There are lots of verses on muslims expelling the jews and christians.
www.sunnah.com/search/expel-jews

What did the poor little Geckos do to piss Mohammad off,why did Mohammad command Geckos be killed, did they break a treaty?
Quote:

Allah's apostle commanded the killing of Geckos, he called them little noxious creatures
www.sunnah.com/urn/255620

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #20 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:28pm Good lord - collective punishment of Geckos now. Was no one spared the prophet's wrath??
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #21 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

Good lord - collective punishment of Geckos now. Was no one spared the prophet's wrath??

Why did Mo order geckos be killed?

He didnt like dogs either-

Quote:

During the lifetime of Allah's apostle,the dogs used to urinate and pass through the mosques,nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog)
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/4/40

Quote:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/59/129

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #22 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:04pm Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm: Why did Mo order geckos be killed? Clearly because he was evil incarnate.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #23 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:36pm It does make him look a bit foolish. Is this supposed to be an order from God?
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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #24 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:46pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed.

Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times.

It happens here in Australia too.

Some animal pests that are culled in Australia:

dogs
kangaroos
goats
camels
foxes
rabbits
cats

attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads

You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century.

Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA.

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #25 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:13pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 10:26am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:11am:

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote:

Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle

Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty?

I am not [aware] of any.

Then you are not aware TC.

Moslem 'peace' treaties with unbelievers, are mandated to be made, only because of moslem [military] weakness.

And during the period of a truce with disbelievers, as soon as moslems are again strong enough to re-engage in warfare 'struggle' against the disbelievers, the moslems are then obligated [by their religion] to 'set aside' their truce with the disbelievers.

All truces with disbelievers are made [by moslems], only, because such a truce is advantageous to the moslems, and such a truce is not being offered because moslems are willing to accept any long term peaceful co-existence, with any person who is a [independent from ISLAM] disbeliever.

Google;
hudaibiyah, period of treaty

as per being revealed by this moslem scholar......

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain.
Polite and softly spoken....
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

Yeah the link doesn't work. Do you just make these up or what?

Here is a an excerpt from an Israeli newspaper article about an extremist rabbi who says it OK to kill non-Jew babies. Does it worry you Yadda?

Quote:

West Bank rabbi: Jews can kill Gentiles who threaten Israel

Book by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro of Yitzhar permits even the murder of babies and children who pose threat.

Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation.

Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs.

"It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder."

Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have recommended the book to their students and followers.

- Haaretz, Nov 9, 2009

or perhaps you would like this one about how the Israeli gov funds rabbis who call for killing of babies?

Quote:

Who is funding the rabbi who endorses killing gentile babies?

Right-wing spokesmen, including some elected officials, rushed to place Yaakov "Jack" Teitel in the fringe group alongside Yigal Amir, Eden Natan Zada, Eliran Golan, Asher Weisgan, Danny Tikman and a few other "political/ideological" murderers...

...government ministries regularly transfer support and funding to a yeshiva whose rabbi determined that it is permissible to kill gentile babies...

...in 2006-2007, the Ministry of Education department of Torah institutions transferred over a million shekels to the Od Yosef Hai yeshiva in Yitzhar.

The Ministry of Social Affairs has allocated over 150,000 shekels to the yeshiva since 2007...

...The commandments in the book do not suffice only with gentiles; you can also find in them approval to attack leftist professors: every citizen in the kingdom opposing us who encourages the fighters or expresses satisfaction with their actions is considered a pursuer and his killing is permissible," wrote the rabbi and adds, "and also considered a pursuer is someone whose remarks weaken our kingdom or have a similar effect."

- Haaretz, 17 Nov. 2009

Perhaps you would like to talk about what the Catholic Church has done when it gained power - e.g. Inquisitions, Cruades, complicity in Holocaust, etc.

I can show you articles about Christian priests who were involved in genocide in Rwanda or bombings in Ireland. There are articles about a priest who is the arguably the biggest terrorist in the world.

There are priests and rabbis currently blessing armies that are invading and occupying Muslim lands today.

I spoke to a ADF serviceman a few months ago who told me that the ADF brings in priests and rabbis to justify to the soldiers the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. Sick right?

People in glass houses shouldn't th

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« Last Edit: Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:25pm by True Colours »

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shockresist

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #26 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:47pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed.

Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times.

It happens here in Australia too.

Some animal pests that are culled in Australia:

dogs
kangaroos
goats
camels
foxes
rabbits
cats

attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads

You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century.

Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA.

Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs.

Is there a hadith which says he did?

Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc.

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #27 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 4:54pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed.

Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times.

It happens here in Australia too.

Some animal pests that are culled in Australia:

dogs
kangaroos
goats
camels
foxes
rabbits
cats

attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads

You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century.

Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA.

Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs.

Is there a hadith which says he did?

Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc.

Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls.

It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #28 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 5:45pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed.

Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times.

It happens here in Australia too.

Some animal pests that are culled in Australia:

dogs
kangaroos
goats
camels
foxes
rabbits
cats

attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads

You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century.

Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA.

Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs.

Is there a hadith which says he did?

Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc.

Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls.

It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

The hadeeth show Mohammad was making it up as he went along even blind freddy can see this.

Did Mo allow guard and hunting dogs after complaints from muslims,why is there no verse allowing guide dogs for blind people?

There is nothing in the hadeeth to indicate domestic dogs are encouraged or that wild dogs were a problem.

www.sunnah.com/search/dogi

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18257 Gender:	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #29 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm Quote: The messenger of allah said- The black dog is a devil www.sunnah.com/muslim/4/299
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