Australian Politics Forum - Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims

True Colours Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2837 Gender:	Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims Reply #30 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 7:25pm Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm: Quote: The messenger of allah said- The black dog is a devil interesting isn't that some of the most dangerous dogs are black - like doberman and rottweilers. Pitbulls and wolves can be black as well.
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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #31 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 7:26pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

why is there no verse allowing guide dogs for blind people?

Did you know that miniature horses can be trained to do the same thing?

Quote:

Tiny horse trains as guide for blind Muslim woman

Mona Ramouni, 28, lost her sight shortly after birth, and has had to rely on her family members to guide her around the Detroit suburb where they live...

...Now Mexicali Rose, a 3-year-old former show horse that stands about 2 1/2 feet tall and weighs about 125 pounds, has arrived to help Miss Ramouni...

...The horses can live into their 30s, more than twice as long as most dogs, she said.

The horse, who has been trained to get in and out of vehicles, guide through crowds and stand still indoors, is expected to take up residence in a newly erected shed on the family's lawn within the next two months...

- The Telegraph, 10 Apr 2009

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

There is nothing in the hadeeth to indicate domestic dogs are encouraged or that wild dogs were a problem.

You seem to think that this is the only recording of the incident. It is not. There are dozens of reports which mention the culling of wild dogs in Madina.

Quote:

Ibn Mughaffal reported: The Messenger of God (peace & blessings of God upon him) ordered killing of the dogs..and then granted concession (to keep) the dog for hunting and the dog for (the security) of the herd, and and for watching the cultivated land...

- Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

Ibn Umar reported that God's Messenger ordered the killing of dogs except the dog tamed for hunting, or watching of the herd of sheep or other domestic animals. It was said to Ibn Umar that Abu Huraira mentioned the exception about the dog for watching the field...

- Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

Ibn Mughaffal reported: "God's Messenger ordered the killing of dogs and then said: 'what is the trouble with them? How dogs are nuisance to them (the citizens of Medina).' He then permitted keeping of dogs for hunting and (the protection of) herds." Yahya added that he (the Prophet) permitted the keeping of dogs for (the protection of) herds, for hunting and (the protection of) cultivated land.

- Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

Narrated Aisha: God's Messenger said, "Five kinds of animals are harmful and could be culled (even) in the Sanctuary (of Madina or Mecca). These are: the crow, the kite, the scorpion, the mouse and the rabid dog." (Book #29, Hadith #55)

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« Last Edit: Jul 16^th, 2013 at 8:38pm by True Colours »

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shockresist

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #32 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed.

Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times.

It happens here in Australia too.

Some animal pests that are culled in Australia:

dogs
kangaroos
goats
camels
foxes
rabbits
cats

attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads

You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century.

Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA.

Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs.

Is there a hadith which says he did?

Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc.

Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls.

It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

Animals can take people to heaven.

There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog.

God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

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Soren

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #33 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:14pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Animals can take people to heaven.

There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog.

God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

You do realise that this is a metaphor and is not to be taken literally.

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #34 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:33pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Animals can take people to heaven.

There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog.

God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

Yes. She was an Israelite

Quote:

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The Prophet said, "While a dog was going round a well and was about to die of thirst, a prostitute from the Tribes of Israel saw it and took off her shoe and gave it some water (using the shoe as a vessel). So God forgave her because of that good deed."

- Bukhari

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« Last Edit: Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:52pm by True Colours »

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Karnal

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #35 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:40pm

Soren wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:14pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Animals can take people to heaven.

There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog.

God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

You do realise that this is a metaphor and is not to be taken literally.

Never ever, old chap. They didn’t have metaphors, remember?

Completely performative, literalist, absolutist.

Always. Absolutely. On stilts.

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Soren

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #36 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:50pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:40pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:14pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Animals can take people to heaven.

There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog.

God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

You do realise that this is a metaphor and is not to be taken literally.

Never ever, old chap. They didn’t have metaphors, remember?

Completely performative, literalist, absolutist.

Always. Absolutely. On stilts.

Indeed. In their own words:
True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Animals can take people to heaven.

There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog.

God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

Yes. She was an Israelite

Quote:

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The Prophet said, "While a dog was going round a well and was about to die of thirst, an prostitute from the Tribes of Israel saw it and took off her shoe and gave it some water (using the shoe as a vessel). So God forgave her because of that good deed."

- Bukhari

Bukhari - they rest their case.

You can see how widely they read, how broad a horizon they strive for.
Bukhari or bust, innit.i

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Soren

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #37 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 10:13pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

Umar was far from a Jew-hater, initiating an old-age pension system for Jews in the Islamic state during his rule.

Umar expelled the Jews of Khyber to Syria only after they had broken the treaty that had allowed them to stay there.

Did they lose their pension rights? Imcrookonit should be told.

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Soren

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #38 - Jul 16^th, 2013 at 10:20pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs.

Is there a hadith which says he did?

Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc.

Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls.

It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

Islam's intellectual horizons: wild versus domesticated dogs - do we kill them, how to kill them, why we kill them, who is targeted for culling.
And that's just the dogs!

Imagine the depth of the intellectual labour that goes into whether or how to kill the kuffar and especially the Jooooooo.

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freediver

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #39 - Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:29am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:51pm:

Since thats somehow not obvious enough for you FD, this thread is about challenging the charge that Muhammad, and therefore Islam has an anti-semitic agenda - it hates jews for being jews, and the prophet planned and organised a sinnister plot to ethnically cleanse the jews from Arabia.

Gandalf, does telling one of his successors that he "will" ethnically cleanse the entire Arabian peninsula count as a sinister plot? Or is it not a sinister plot because it is all well documented and justified?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:11pm:

Just about every response of yours relating to Muhammad's treatment of the jews has a reference to Hitler and Hitler-like sinister motives. My personal favourite was your statement that "Muhammed persecuted everyone who did not join his religion - Jews, Christians, Pagans etc" - seemingly completely oblivious of the covenant of Medina, as well as the Achtiname of Muhammad.

Gandalf is it a little strange that Muhammed would predict the ethnic cleansing of people he had made a covenant with?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:52am:

Everything we know about the prophet indicates that he saw the jews as natural allies.

Gandalf can you explain how Muhammed's prediction indicates that he saw the Jews as natural allies?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

There is no evidence that Muhammad hated the jews because they were jews. On the contrary, he had set up the first multi-faith society in Medina, where muslims, christians and jews lived as equals.

Can you clarify this in the context of the ethnic cleansing of the Hijaz please Gandalf?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 6:33pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

I never said it was limited to Jews.

But you certainly said it included the jews. You stated very clearly that all jews were ethnically cleansed, firstly out of Arabia, then you modified that to 'a significant area' of Arabia - or something similar. Now that bullshit claim is exposed for the lie that it is, your tactic is to respond by referring to non-jews that were allegedly ethnically cleansed. The thread is about jews, how about we stick to that?

Gandalf, would you mind clarifying what claims you think are BS?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 11:18am:

For example - the Achtiname of Muhammad, where the prophet enshrines the protection of christians into law:

Quote:

...

* No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

...

Can you explain away the apparent contradiction between this and the ethnic cleansing, which involved forcibly relocating many people, including Christians?

Were pagans afforded the same standards?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

I thought you were a muslim. Would you mind explaining the myth thing?

The myth that Muhammad hated jews and engaged in collective punishment, and worked to ethnically cleanse the jews from Arabia.

Is it a myth or not? Is it only incorrect in that Muhammed only got rid of a few tribes of Jews, and left it to Umar to cleanse the entire Arabian peninsula - and he only partially fulfilled this "prediction"?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:17pm:

FD, not a single one of those posts says anything that supports the view that jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia - or any part of Arabia. What exactly were you trying to show me FD?

Do you still think this Gandalf?

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« Last Edit: Jul 17^th, 2013 at 11:48am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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True Colours

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #40 - Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:37am

Let's be frank, it is ludicrous to call the transfer of a small community from one part of a state to another ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing would be to either kill them or force them out of the state altogether. How is it ethnic cleansing if 99.9% of Jews and Christians were unaffected? A small community was moved In Australia you may be moved if it is for the greater good. I can show you cases where people were forced by the government to move because of the greater good - for example the government wants to build a airport, railway line or freeway/motorway. Is it ethnic cleansing? The Israeli government unilaterally decided to force Israeli settlers to move from the Gaza Strip. Did the Israeli government commit ethnic cleansing? In Australia, the principle with forcibly moving someone from their home is that they are entitled to equal compensation. Umar did far better than that, for example, the people of Khaybar were given land near the Mediterranean coast in exchange for their dusty desert village Seriously which would you choose a village in the middle of the desert, 200 km from any body of water, or river or a some farmland in the Middle East's so-called Fertile Crescent just a few kilometres from the nearest rivers, lakes and the Mediterranean Coast. Since when does ethnic cleansing involve an upgrade?

The people of Khaybar were not moved based on their ethnicity but rather based on their hostile actions. They had broken a treaty with violence action. Add to this that they were living in the nearest town to the capital of the Islamic state - a threat that necessitated their removal.

People should marvel at the mercy of Umar towards these hostile people. They had only attacked an official working for the state but had wounded the sone of the leader of the greatest empire in the world! Imagine if it had been the son of a leader of any other empire - surely they would have been tortured, killed or at least enslaved. But in the Islamic Caliphate? No, Umar gave them an upgrade! What would contemporary leaders do? When the nephew of the Emperor of the Austria-Hungarian Empire was attacked World War II began and 16 million people are killed. George W started a war that destroyed Iraq and had Saddam killed for an alleged assassination attempt that did not even result in injury:

Quote:

Saddam tried to kill my dad, says Bush
September 27 2002

Disarming and ousting Saddam Hussein is a uniquely American concern, President George W Bush said late today, citing the Iraqi leader's ties to an assassination attempt on Bush's father.
"Other countries of course, bear the same risk. But there's no doubt his hatred is mainly directed at us," Bush said at a political fundraiser in Houston, Texas. "After all this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."

As Bush's father, former president George Bush, travelled to Kuwait in April 1993, officials there disrupted a car bomb plot they said they traced back to Saddam.

Then US president Bill Clinton cited the plot as justification for a June 1993 US missile attack on Baghdad's intelligence headquarters.

Bush had also referred to that US charge in his September 12 address to the UN General Assembly, but had deliberately referred only to "a former American president" to avoid personalising the issue, aides said.

In his speech here, the US leader again said Washington would act alone if the world body fails to take strong action to strip Saddam of any nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons.
"If the United Nations won't act, if he doesn't disarm, the United States will lead a coalition to make sure he does," the president said here. "It's an American issue, a uniquely American issue."

Sydney Morning Herald

Did Umar wipe out the Jewish community in the desert village of Khaybar? No, he gave them a real estate upgrade! Amazing! What leader of any Empire has ever demonstrated such mercy?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #41 - Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:03pm

freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Gandalf, does telling one of his successors that he "will" ethnically cleanse the entire Arabian peninsula count as a sinister plot?

No, and 'ethnically cleanse' is the wrong term. They were all the same ethnicity.

freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Gandalf is it a little strange that Muhammed would predict the ethnic cleansing of people he had made a covenant with?

It was a prophecy as I understand it - he prophesised that those remaining non-muslims (the vast majority had already converted to islam) would break the covenant, and would be expelled. The point is, nowhere can you find any instance where Muhammad broke the covenant, and expelled non-muslims simply because they were non-muslims. Also, Umar continued to honour the covenant - only expelling those who broke it.

freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Gandalf, would you mind clarifying what claims you think are BS?

Sure, how about the fact that jews have lived in Yemen continuously until this very day. Jews lived throughout the Arabian peninsula until the 1950s.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #42 - Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:03pm:

Sure, how about the fact that jews have lived in Yemen continuously until this very day. Jews lived throughout the Arabian peninsula until the 1950s.

There are no jews in Yemen Gandalf that is a fact, i see muslims disregarding anything on wiki that does not go with their fictional views on reality.

Quote:

Preparations are being made to continue transporting the last few remaining jews from Yemen to Israel within the coming months.

According to a report published earlier this month in the Yemen post, 60 jews have left Yemen since 2010 complaining of harrassment and discrimination.

The jews have been forced to live in a guarded compound in the capital since they were driven from their homes by muslims in 2007.

www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164406#.Ueb70qyynXR

Why did the muslims expel the jews from their homes in Yemen, did they break a treaty?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #43 - Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:41pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:32pm:

There are no jews in Yemen Gandalf that is a fact

Baron Baron. Its almost like you make a point of acting the village idiot.

Your article is dated 2013 and states "Preparations are being made [to evacuate the remaining jews]"

As far as I know - 6 months later - at least some of those jews have yet to be evacuated.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muhammed "predicted" ethnic cleansing by Muslims
Reply #44 - Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:41pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:32pm:

There are no jews in Yemen Gandalf that is a fact

Baron Baron. Its almost like you make a point of acting the village idiot.

Your article is dated 2010 and states "Preparations are being made [to evacuate the remaining jews]"

It didn't take me long to find a more recent source that illustrates jews are still there - as of January 2013:

Quote:

ammran, yemen | A tiny Jewish community in the Yemeni province of Ammran is threatened with extinction as its members step up immigration in the face of increasing harassment.

Only four families remain out of hundreds of Jews who used to live in the town of Raida, 37 miles northwest of the Yemeni capital Sanaa. These four extended families comprise the country’s largest Jewish community, no more than 100 people, according to leader Rabbi Suleiman Yahya, 45.

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/67381/yemens-dwindling-jewish-community-face...

Is that supposed to show how muslims tolerate the yahud by persecuting them?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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