freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 8:25pm:


There are plenty of historical accounts about the breakdown in relations between the muslims and the jews. I'm not aware of any that point to a sinister anti-jewish agenda that pre-planned an ethnic cleansing program.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 9:34pm:


Yeah, pretty much.

Try, if you can, to view this outside the prevailing "can't ever say anything negative about the jews" prism that we live in today. I know it can be hard, since it is so culturally entrenched. But it shouldn't make us intellectually dishonest about historical facts. If you have any valid evidence that these jewish tribes were victims of an anti-semitic agenda, by all means present it. I haven't seen any yet. All I see is political conflict between competing rival powers, which eventually came to a head. In the absense of evidence to the contrary, Muhammad should get the benefit of the doubt that he was sincere about his commitment to coexist peacefully with his non-muslim neighbours - until he was forced to change because of strategic-defensive concerns.

And lets just forget about the centuries in which the jews had lived amongst the muslims and prospered.

Which centuries were those Gandalf?

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Well that's what the koran says, so it must be true eh? Every single time.

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So what does that tell you?

Do you disagree with the historical accounts that put all the blame on the Jews?

Except of course his prediction that this would happen.

So the Muslim nation quickly expanded to cover the entire peninsula and ethnically cleanse a large area of all non-Muslims, all in the name of self defence?

Are you suggesting Muhammed made this prediction based on his experience with Jews?

What would any leader of any state do with people who behave as the following:

The Jews were continually attacking Muslims in Madina and this included murders, attempted murders, grievous physical assaults, robberies and even a sexual assault on a Muslim woman in public by a Jew. But they were not initially expelled. In fact, the first time Jews killed a Muslim Prophet Muhammed tried to keep the peace by paying blood money out of his own pocket to the family of the killed Muslim.



But the Jews continued their hostilities and treachery.



Even though the Jews of Madina had signed a treaty promising to help the Muslims against any aggressor, at every opportunity, the Jews would conspire with the enemies of the Muslims to attack Madina.

What kind of leader would permit a group of people to stay after they had treacherously joined forces with an invading enemy?

Think about what any leader in medieval times would have done in the same circumstances. The Jews of Madina were lucky that they weren't killed if you consider how a Christian or pagan leader would have dealt with them at the time.




*Jews began by making many physical assaults on Muslims in Madina as intimidation when they became jealous of the Muslim's prestige when the Muslims successfully defended the city from pagan attack in 624.

*A Jew sexually assaulted a Muslim woman publicly in the Jewish marketplace of Madina

*A gang of Jews killed a Muslim man in public in Madina

*A Jew Robbed and caved in the head of a Muslim girl.

*Jews killed a Muslim at Khaybar and threw his body in a well.

*In 625, the Jews reneged on their treaty in which they had promised to help defend Madina from pagan attack and waited in their homes whilst the Muslims faced attack from the pagans of Mecca. The Jews claimed this was because it was the Sabbath. The Jews had made secret pact to help the pagans of Mecca.

*The Jews attempted the assassination of Prophet Muhammed.

*Poisoned Prophet Muhammed and one of his companions

*The Jews used to come and curse the Prophet, the head of the Islamic state, to his face by saying "death be upon you".

*The Jews of Khaybar attacked the son of leader of the Muslims, Umar, dislocating his hands and feet whilst he was on official business.

*The Jews, who had made a treaty promising to defend Madina from attack, committed treason by making a secret pact with the pagans to attack the Muslims of Madina in 627. The Jews recruited pagans from central Arabia, and launched an attack with 10,000 Jewish and pagan soldiers. The Jewish Qurayza tribe  living inside madina then attacked the small Muslim army of 3000 from behind. THis is despite Muslims pleading with them to keep their treaty and telling them that they would be punished if they attacked.