Australian Politics Forum - Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims

True Colours

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #30 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:03am

Yadda wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:39pm:

There is no record in the Koran, where Allah states that captive women must give their consent to sex with their captors.

"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"

- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?

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freediver

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #31 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 8:20am

Any idea what this is about TC?

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 10:20am:

Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations. She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.

Can you give an example of someone who was punished by Muhammed, or even admonished, for raping his female slave? While your at it, do you have any examples of spousal rape being punished?

In your quote, why did it finish with "if they desire chastity", rather than say, "if they don't want to have sex with you"?

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Soren

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #32 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 8:26am

True Colours wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:03am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:39pm:

There is no record in the Koran, where Allah states that captive women must give their consent to sex with their captors.

"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"

- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?

Er...

" But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly)."

The rest of The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33 which you completely accidentally forgot to include. Allah will forgive the women because they were forced. Not the Mohamedans who forced them, but the women who were forced.
Merciful-like, innit.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims Reply #33 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 10:21am Soren wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 8:26am: Not the Mohamedans who forced them, but the women who were forced. absolute rubbish. The command not to force the slave girls is made in the very same verse. So of course it goes without saying.
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Yadda

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #34 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:09pm

Soren wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:03am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:39pm:

There is no record in the Koran, where Allah states that captive women must give their consent to sex with their captors.

"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"

- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?

Er...

" But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly)."

The rest of The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33 which you completely accidentally forgot to include. Allah will forgive the women because they were forced. Not the Mohamedans who forced them, but the women who were forced.
Merciful-like, innit.

Thank you, Soren.

True_Colours,

Also this....

Faith Ratchet

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1357182115/24#24
Quote:

Koran 24.33, DOES NOT prohibit 'forcing' a captive female slave [i.e. having non-consensual sex with a with captive women slave].

It says; DO NOT FORCE A CAPTIVE FEMALE SLAVE INTO PROSTITUTION, FOR >> YOUR << OWN MONETARY GAIN.

True Colours wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:03am:

Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?

True_Colours,

Also this....

Female activist calls for legalizing sex slavery

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1307539638/2#2
Quote:

Compare what is 'lawful' regards captive women within ISLAM, with what was lawful within Moses law, regards captive women....

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49449 At my desk.	Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims Reply #35 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:23pm Can you give an example of someone who was punished by Muhammed, or even admonished, for raping his female slave? While you're at it, do you have any examples of spousal rape being punished? Or even wife beating?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #36 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 1:59pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Can you give an example of someone who was punished by Muhammed, or even admonished, for raping his female slave? While you're at it, do you have any examples of spousal rape being punished? Or even wife beating?

ummm ok FD, so coming up with examples of people being punished for raping slaves, isn't exactly proving or disproving that the command "do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity" exists does it?

You also assume that slave rape was actually going on. Maybe all the muslims then were obeying islam's commands in relation to slave rape.

Perhaps in the spirit of putting the burden of proof back on you (it is after all, your own bullshit claim), it might be prudent for you to come up with a single example of muslims raping their slaves and getting off scott free.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #37 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 3:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Perhaps in the spirit of putting the burden of proof back on you (it is after all, your own bullshit claim), it might be prudent for you to come up with a single example of muslims raping their slaves and getting off scott free.

Love that!!! All of a sudden, common law principles are called upon to defend sharia and Islamic customs generally.

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True Colours

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #38 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 5:06pm

Soren wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Perhaps in the spirit of putting the burden of proof back on you (it is after all, your own bullshit claim), it might be prudent for you to come up with a single example of muslims raping their slaves and getting off scott free.

Love that!!! All of a sudden, common law principles are called upon to defend sharia and Islamic customs generally.

You ignoramus! Shariah law held the presumption of innocence centuries before common law existed.

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freediver

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #39 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 5:24pm

So tell us TC, which of the 700 men that Muhammed executed were given the presumption of innocence? Or does justice only apply when it is convenient for Muslims? Which of the women who ended up as sex slaves were given the presumption of innocence? Which of the children who were also enslaved were given the presumption of innocence?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #40 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 6:31pm

Soren wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

Love that!!! All of a sudden, common law principles are called upon to defend sharia and Islamic customs generally.

So tell me Soren, which principles should be called upon to support your bullshit claims? You clowns are the ones saying that rape is institutionalised in islam, no question, no holds bar, no beg your pardons - yet you can't come up with a single piece of evidence to support this. FD tried once, but it sadly involved switching the burden of proof away from the claimants. The sheer absurdity of this somehow flying right over his head.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #41 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 6:29pm:

Are these true?

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 5:33pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 5:13pm:

Do you not tire of the lie?

.do not compel your slave girls to sexual servitude, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity
- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Quote:

The Prophet instructed that if a beating was carried out, it should be done with a toothbrush - so that no injury should occur. What is allowed is only for a husband to show that he is severely displeased, not to cause any physical injury. Hitting on the head was also prohibited.

That quran verse means you cannot make your slave work as a prostitute which is different to forcing her to have sex with her muslim owner.

The shia allow prostitutes in a temporary marriage, its called a mutah marriage which differs in name from the sunni version called misyar marriage.

Do you have a cite for Mohammad saying hit your wife with a miswak?
Does sunnah.com or quran.com have this verse or is it one plucked from the asses of muslims?

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

I will let the good sheik at Islam qa explain why Islam allows a man to rape his wife or slave, he quotes from the quran,hadith and scholars.
Quote:

Is it permissable for a man to force his wife or slave to have intercourse?

The woman does not have the right to refuse her husband,rather she must respond to his request every time he calls her.
A slave woman does not have the right to refuse her masters request.
www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597

Quote:

Praise be to allah
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or is not married.
The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/10382

You are a munafiq, do you think a rational person will believe your lies?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #42 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 6:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 6:31pm:

You clowns are the ones saying that rape is institutionalised in islam, no question, no holds bar, no beg your pardons - yet you can't come up with a single piece of evidence to support this.

There has been plenty of evidence provided, i doubt non muslims will ignore sheik Munajid who quotes from the quran,hadith and scholars.

Muslim assclowns are the only people who jail rape victims while letting the offender off, there are also cases where victims have been forced to marry their rapist which only happens in the Islamic part of the world.
Quote:

A young Norwegian woman has been sentenced to 16 months in jail after she reported a rape in Dubai.

We are very surprised and hoped it would go another way, but we live in a country which has a justice system which draws its conclusions with the help of sharia law.

Earlier this year Australian Alicia Gali 27 spoke of how she was thrown in a Dubai jail for 8 months after she reported a rape.

Under UAE law,rapists can only be convicted if either the perpetrator confesses or if 4 adult muslim males witness the crime.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2367152/Norwegian-woman-reported-raped-Dubai-ja...

Did Dubai get its first concrete building in 1960,i wonder when the Romans started using concrete?

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True Colours

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #43 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 7:01pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:09pm:

Quote:

Koran 24.33, DOES NOT prohibit 'forcing' a captive female slave [i.e. having non-consensual sex with a with captive women slave].

It says; DO NOT FORCE A CAPTIVE FEMALE SLAVE INTO PROSTITUTION,

The word that you have translated into "prostitution" (bagaa'البغاء) has other meanings such 'fornication' and "outrage" "assault" "oppression", etc..

A phrase that captures more of the meanings is "illicit sexual activity" which due to the context I have rendered "sexual servitude" - and any translator will tell you that context is all important.

Why would we not use the word "prostitution"?
* Because prostitution is already illegal in Islam, why would it need to be mentioned in this verse?
* Because 'prostitution' only captures a small part of the meaning of the Arabic word "bagaa'" .
*Because the first part of the verse is addressing men and how they should conduct themselves in marriage, and the logical conclusion is that it is continuing to talk about how a man should conduct himself with his own sexuality - not going off on a tangent about whether slavegirls can perform prostitution.
*Lastly and most importantly, the verse makes it conditional upon the slavegirls desires (does she want sex or desire chastity). Prostitution is completely banned in Islam. So why make it conditional upon the slavegirl's desire - wouldn't make sense.

The most accurate translation in my opinion would be:

"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual servitude, seeking the temporary interests presented by this worldly life, if they desire chastity..."

Yadda wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:09pm:

FOR >> YOUR << OWN [u]MONETARY GAIN

I can assure that the word or phrase "monetary gain" is not found in the verse at all.

The word in question is the Arabic 'aradh' (عرض) which literally means "something non-essential/luxury/superfluity' or 'vanities'

Once again I will refer you to what I believe is an accurate translation:

"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual servitude, seeking the temporary interests presented by this worldly life, if they desire chastity..."

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True Colours

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #44 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 7:13pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 6:54pm:

We are very surprised and hoped it would go another way, but we live in a country which has a justice system which draws its conclusions with the help of sharia law.

The UAE is a former British colony and its legal system is a mixture of British law, local culture, and the whims of the dictators. It has nothing at all to do with sharia law. In fact, it is the opposite of sharia law. There is absolutely no provision in sharia law for a woman alleging rape to be punished or be forced to marry her allege attacker.

Another case of the British colonials removing sharia and replacing it with crap.

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