Australian Politics Forum - Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims

freediver

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #60 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 6:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 5:55pm:

Appealing to the common ground between what he preaches and judaism is hardly anti-semitism. Quite the opposite actually.

Did you actually read it?

Quote:

beware lest God bring upon you the vengeance that He brought upon Quraysh and become Muslims

Quote:

You know that I am a prophet who has been sent

Quote:

O assembly of Jews! Surrender to Allah (embrace Islam) and you will be safe!

Quote:

I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you has property he should sell it, otherwise, know that the land is for Allah and His Apostle.

Appealing to common ground eh?

All in good faith eh?

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18257 Gender:	Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims Reply #61 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 7:12pm polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 5:55pm: Appealing to the common ground between what he preaches and judaism is hardly anti-semitism. Quite the opposite actually. So what do muslims preach about the filthy yahud today?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #62 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 7:24pm

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 6:34pm:

Did you actually read it?

I did, and to be honest I didn't detect any anti-semitism: ie hate speech directed at jews for being jews. What I did see was a leader issuing an ultimatum to a group of people who had acted treacherously - who just happened to be jews. In fact the only reference to their jewishness was an appeal to the common ground they shared with islam.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims Reply #63 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 7:35pm What was the common ground?
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Yadda

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #64 - Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 9:03pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 7:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 5:55pm:

Appealing to the common ground between what he preaches and judaism is hardly anti-semitism. Quite the opposite actually.

So what do muslims preach about the filthy yahud today?

Islam: The Jews Are the Eternal Enemies of Muslims Regardless of the Occupation of Palestine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY

So gandalf,

Please tell us, is the moslem in the YT a fine example of a devout and virtuous moslem ?

And!, do YOU believe that he is presenting a true image of the relationship which must exist between a mainstream moslem and the infidel [i.e. all of them] ???

But if he is mistaken, are you [as a righteous and rightly guided moslem], going to correct this fellow and his many friends ?

And if not, why not ?

But alternatively, if i [or persons like myself] choose to rebuke such a fellow, am i a person who is 'full of hatred for moslems' ?

Coz, that is the claim of people like yourself, isn't it gandalf ?

That, because i condemn the poisonous uttering of such men, i am full of hatred for virtuous moslems.i+++

excerpts from the YT.....

Quote:

Muhammad Hussein Yaqoub: If the Jews left Palestine to us, would we start loving them? Of course not. We will never love them. Absolutely not. The Jews are infidels not because I say so, and not because they are killing Muslims, but because Allah said: The Jews say that Uzair is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that Christ is the son of Allah. These are the words from their mouths. They imitate the sayings of the disbelievers before. May Allah fight them. How deluded they are. It is Allah who said that they are infidels.

[That's Qur'an 9:30.]

Your belief regarding the Jews should be, first, that they are infidels, and second, that they are enemies. They are enemies not because they occupied Palestine. They would have been enemies even if they did not occupy a thing. Allah said: You shall find the strongest men in enmity to the disbelievers [sic] to be the Jews and the polytheists.

[Thats Qur'an 5:82.]

Third, you must believe that the Jews will never stop fighting and killing us. They [fight] not for the sake of land and security, as they claim, but for the sake of their religion: And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you back youre your religion, if they can.

[Thats Qur'an 2:217.]

This is it. We must believe that our fighting with the Jews is eternal, and it will not end until the final battle and this is the fourth point. You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth.

It is not me who says so. The Prophet said: Judgment Day will not come until you fight the Jews and kill them. The Jews will hide behind stones and trees, and the stones and tree will call: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews. I have heard that they are planting many of these trees now. [...]

[That Hadith can be found at Sahih Muslim 6985.]

As for you Jews the curse of Allah upon you. The curse of Allah upon you, whose ancestors were apes and pigs.

[That's Qur'an 2:62-65; 5:59-60; and 7:166.]

You Jews have sown hatred in our hearts, and we have bequeathed it to our children and grandchildren. You will not survive as long as a single one of us remains.

[...]

Oh Jews, may the curse of Allah be upon you. Oh Jews... Oh Allah, bring Your wrath, punishment, and torment down upon them. Allah, we pray that you transform them again, and make the Muslims rejoice again in seeing them as apes and pigs. You pigs of the earth! You pigs of the earth! You kill the Muslims with that cold pig [blood] of yours.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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True Colours

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #65 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 7:43am

The sheikh had made few errors in his speech, but he he is also right about a few things.

The Jews are infidels. Of course a Muslim believes this. If he did not, it would mean that he believed that the Jews were upon the right religion and the Muslim may as well become a Jew if that were so. The Jew is the infidel to Islam just as the Muslim is the infidel to Judaism. Or would you have us believe that the Jew believes in Islam?

The Quran explains why the Jews have become infidels. It is because they followed their priests and rabbis when they changed their Bible, and taught people to disobey God, they made lawful unlawful and vice versa.

"They (the Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and monks to be their LORDS besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordred by Allah)." - the Quran, 9:31

"Once while the Messenger of God was reciting this verse (9:31), 'Adi bin Hatim said: O God's Messenger! They do not worship them' (i.e. the rabbis and monks). The Messenger of God said: "They cerainly do. They (the rabbis and monks) made lawful things as unlwaful and unlawful things as lawful, and they (the Jews and Christians) followed them: and in so doing they really WORSHIPPED them." (Ahmed, Tirmizi, Ibn Jarir).

The Quran also tells us that the Jews hate the Muslims.

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
- the Quran, 5:82

Throughout history we have seen it ,and today we still see it in the actions of Israel, and it Jewish supporters like Pamela Geller - that Jewess froths at the mouth in her hatred of Muslims.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims Reply #66 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 9:06am freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 7:35pm: What was the common ground? Quote: You know that I am a prophet who has been sent - you will find that in your scriptures and God's covenant with you.
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freediver

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #67 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 9:08am

So the common ground is that the Jews also believed Muhammed to be a prophet? At best, that is a windup. There is no way it reflects a political leader seeking a diplomatic outcome. You would have to be devoid of empathy to see it any other way.

Quote:

"Once while the Messenger of God was reciting this verse (9:31), 'Adi bin Hatim said: O God's Messenger! They do not worship them' (i.e. the rabbis and monks). The Messenger of God said: "They cerainly do. They (the rabbis and monks) made lawful things as unlwaful and unlawful things as lawful, and they (the Jews and Christians) followed them: and in so doing they really WORSHIPPED them." (Ahmed, Tirmizi, Ibn Jarir).

If we apply this logic to Muhammed, it means Muslims worship him if he is wrong, but if he is right they worship God. That is, the claim by Muslims not to worship Muhammed is based on their view that he is right, not on what or who they worship.

Quote:

The Quran also tells us that the Jews hate the Muslims.

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
- the Quran, 5:82

Does it also talk about the Jews scheming and treachery?

How does this fit in with Gandalf's claim that Muhammed was all "peace with the Jews"? The typical spin I see is that Islam and Muhammed protected the Jews and Christians (and let's not mention the pagans).

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« Last Edit: Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 9:17am by freediver »

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Yadda

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #68 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 9:11am

True Colours wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 7:43am:

The sheikh had made few errors in his speech, but he he is also right about a few things.

The Jews are infidels.

Of course a Muslim believes this. If he did not, it would mean that he believed that the Jews were upon the right religion and the Muslim may as well become a Jew if that were so. The Jew is the infidel to Islam just as the Muslim is the infidel to Judaism. Or would you have us believe that the Jew believes in Islam?

The Quran explains why the Jews have become infidels. It is because they followed their priests and rabbis when they changed their Bible, and taught people to disobey God, they made lawful unlawful and vice versa.

"They (the Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and monks to be their LORDS besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordred by Allah)." - the Quran, 9:31

"Once while the Messenger of God was reciting this verse (9:31), 'Adi bin Hatim said: O God's Messenger! They do not worship them' (i.e. the rabbis and monks). The Messenger of God said: "They cerainly do. They (the rabbis and monks) made lawful things as unlwaful and unlawful things as lawful, and they (the Jews and Christians) followed them: and in so doing they really WORSHIPPED them." (Ahmed, Tirmizi, Ibn Jarir).

The Quran also tells us that the Jews hate the Muslims.

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
- the Quran, 5:82

Throughout history we have seen it ,and today we still see it in the actions of Israel, and it Jewish supporters like Pamela Geller - that Jewess froths at the mouth in her hatred of Muslims.

And so, TC, you have no argument with the message of Muhammad Hussein Yaqoub in the YT [linked in post #61 & #64] ?

And!, YOU too believe that this moslem is presenting a true image of the type of 'relationship' which must exist between a mainstream moslem and the infidel [i.e. all of them] ???

Quote:

This is it. We must believe that our fighting with the Jews is eternal, and it will not end until the final battle and this is the fourth point. You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth.

.....because the Jews want this conflict with moslems. [i.e. because the Jews as infidels, refuse to relinquish Judaism - and refuse to worship Allah.]

Quote:

Third, you must believe that the Jews will never stop fighting and killing us. They [fight] not for the sake of land and security, as they claim, but for the sake of their religion: And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you back youre your religion, if they can.

[Thats Qur'an 2:217.]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #69 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 9:23am

So if the Jews [worldwide],
1/ were to relinquish Judaism, and,
2/ adopt ISLAM, and worship Allah,
then there would be no conflict between [what in the past were] Jews and the moslems ?

That is very 'big' of the moslem people, and of ISLAM.

e.g.

'If you infidels let us annihilate your culture, and if you adopt our culture and if you will worship our god and respect our prophet, then we can live together in peace.'

Dictionary;
annihilate = = destroy utterly. informal defeat utterly.

I think that we understand what the ambitions of moslems and ISLAM are. Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #70 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 9:54am

Before we get too carried away with the "Muhammad had it in for jews" meme, its worth noting that the Medina jews were most likely not bona fide hebrew jews who were part of the exile from Judea - but locals (probably arabs) who had converted. They did not read hebrew, and had a very minimal knowledge of the jewish texts. They should more accurately be termed loosely as generic "monotheists".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #71 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 10:14am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 9:54am:

Before we get too carried away with the "Muhammad had it in for jews" meme, its worth noting that the Medina jews were most likely not bona fide hebrew jews who were part of the exile from Judea - but locals (probably arabs) who had converted. They did not read hebrew, and had a very minimal knowledge of the jewish texts. They should more accurately be termed loosely as generic "monotheists".

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims Reply #72 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 10:20am Be sure to start a new thread about it FD. Not nearly enough threads here.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims Reply #73 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 10:29am So what was your point with that? That Muhammed did not hate Jews because the Jews he hated were not "bona fide" Jews?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jews always to blame for conflict, never Muslims
Reply #74 - Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 11:05am

freediver wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2013 at 10:29am:

So what was your point with that? That Muhammed did not hate Jews because the Jews he hated were not "bona fide" Jews?

The consistent charge laid at Muhammad was that he hated jews for being jews - making him akin to your more orthodox "anti-semite". It fits the meme that current anti-semitism in the muslim world has a continuous lineage dating right back to the prophet himself. And central to this meme is that this anti-semitism has a doctrinal basis - and I note even you resorting to quranic quotes to support this line.

Yet if we have a group of people that Muhammad fought against that did not observe Mosaic Law, weren't familiar with the hebrew texts, and weren't ethnically "jewish" (as in not being part of the exile from Judea), then we are not really talking about a conflict between muslims and jews - strictly speaking. We then start to understand the conflict as a rather more mundane political feud between like minded (culturally, linguistically and yes, religiously) cousins.

In that case, the whole doctrinal case of "Muhammad the anti-semite" gets thrown out the window. At that point we might even start to look at the conflict with some semblance of rationality - acknowledging that it was, more than anything else, a conflict over power-politics, not racism or (horror of horrors) anti-semitism.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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