Australian Politics Forum - How to stop the boats

skippy.

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #90 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:45pm

salad in wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 2:05pm:

There is only one course of action available unless we are to have mass, unplanned, unsupervised immigration.
This advice applies equally to Abbott & Rudd.

1. Station as many navy vessels as possible across our north western approaches, each equipped with interpreters.
2. Every vessel needs to be equipped with a multi-lingual loud-hail message announcing the following to any boat intercepted:
- you will not be allowed to proceed into Australian waters
- we will supply you with fuel and provisions if you turn back or agree to a tow
- if you disable or scuttle your vessel you will be on your own, we will offer no assistance beyond towing back towards Indonesian waters
3. The navy's orders should be to adhere strictly to these rules.

Nothing else will work. The international community can jump up & down as much as it likes. What can it do? We have the right to protect our borders.

Wrong. All that needs to be done is to suspend our membership of the UN and with it all treaties, conventions etc signed by our alleged representatives. We would no longer be bound to accept any refugees. Those posing as refugees in our country should be informed that under no circumstances would family reunions be allowed. It might also be helpful if groups who arrived in our country as a result of war in their countries (Lebanon, Iraq, Sri Lanka etc) were informed that it is now safe for them to return to their mother countries.

Great idea, when do we tell the Jews WW2 is over,And it's safe to return to Europe? I want to reclaim all of those ghetto areas they have created down on Sydney harbour.

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John Smith

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #91 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:48pm

salad in wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 2:05pm:

There is only one course of action available unless we are to have mass, unplanned, unsupervised immigration.
This advice applies equally to Abbott & Rudd.

1. Station as many navy vessels as possible across our north western approaches, each equipped with interpreters.
2. Every vessel needs to be equipped with a multi-lingual loud-hail message announcing the following to any boat intercepted:
- you will not be allowed to proceed into Australian waters
- we will supply you with fuel and provisions if you turn back or agree to a tow
- if you disable or scuttle your vessel you will be on your own, we will offer no assistance beyond towing back towards Indonesian waters
3. The navy's orders should be to adhere strictly to these rules.

Nothing else will work. The international community can jump up & down as much as it likes. What can it do? We have the right to protect our borders.

Wrong. All that needs to be done is to suspend our membership of the UN and with it all treaties, conventions etc signed by our alleged representatives. We would no longer be bound to accept any refugees. Those posing as refugees in our country should be informed that under no circumstances would family reunions be allowed. It might also be helpful if groups who arrived in our country as a result of war in their countries (Lebanon, Iraq, Sri Lanka etc) were informed that it is now safe for them to return to their mother countries.

fine, suggest it to Tony ..... but until we suspend our UN membership, we stick to the agreement we signed

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Karnal

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #92 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 10:06pm

skippy. wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

salad in wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 2:05pm:

There is only one course of action available unless we are to have mass, unplanned, unsupervised immigration.
This advice applies equally to Abbott & Rudd.

1. Station as many navy vessels as possible across our north western approaches, each equipped with interpreters.
2. Every vessel needs to be equipped with a multi-lingual loud-hail message announcing the following to any boat intercepted:9
- you will not be allowed to proceed into Australian waters
- we will supply you with fuel and provisions if you turn back or agree to a tow
- if you disable or scuttle your vessel you will be on your own, we will offer no assistance beyond towing back towards Indonesian waters
3. The navy's orders should be to adhere strictly to these rules.

Nothing else will work. The international community can jump up & down as much as it likes. What can it do? We have the right to protect our borders.

Wrong. All that needs to be done is to suspend our membership of the UN and with it all treaties, conventions etc signed by our alleged representatives. We would no longer be bound to accept any refugees. Those posing as refugees in our country should be informed that under no circumstances would family reunions be allowed. It might also be helpful if groups who arrived in our country as a result of war in their countries (Lebanon, Iraq, Sri Lanka etc) were informed that it is now safe for them to return to their mother countries.

Great idea, when do we tell the Jews WW2 is over,And it's safe to return to Europe? I want to reclaim all of those ghetto areas they have created down on Sydney harbour.

I concur, Skippy. We could set up Matty’s headquarters in Frank Lewy’s place in Vaucluse.

Yes, Mr Turnbull is right next door, but this would give the Dunedin Libs a strategic advantage over the Liberal Wets.

Thoughts?

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salad in

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #93 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 10:12pm

skippy. wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

Great idea, when do we tell the Jews WW2 is over,And it's safe to return to Europe? I want to reclaim all of those ghetto areas they have created down on Sydney harbour.

I thought the jews were the cause of all unrest in the ME and elsewhere. I find it hard to accept that you now want to cuddle them. Isn't Israel, the home of jews, the ME tinderbox? Surely you want jews sent home which would free us of trouble makers.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #94 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 10:30pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 12:50pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 8:00pm:

Another way to stop the boats:

Cease all offshore processing.

Provide decent accommodation and encourage citizens, perhaps from service clubs, to mentor refugees, assisting them to learn the language and culture.

Set a definite period for processing, with a court order required if the period needs to exceeded. Make the decision open to one appeal.

Work through the UN to persuade countries like Sri Lanka to stop terrorising their own populations.

Work with UN, Interpol and Indonesians to track down and incarcerate people smugglers.

Simple, workable and, above all, humane.

And meanwhile, encourage boats to keep coming, risk capsizing off Christmas Island, and watch more men, women and children drowning at sea.

The time's gone for onshore processing and allowing the boats to keep coming. The death toll's now over a thousand - that we know of. There is no humanity in a refugee policy that, for all its good intentions, rewards people who get to Australia by boat.

If you send those who get to Australia home, they risk further persecution. If you don't, they keep coming to Australia and risk drowning at sea.

It seems to me that the risk of persecution back in Sri Lanka or Iran is less than the risk of travelling to Christmas Island on ill-equipped fishing boats. I don't know this (and each case is unique), but it's now clear what the risk of people smuggling vessels is.

If Australia needs to amend the Refugee Treaty to save lives at sea, this seems far more humane to me.

White Australia policy re packed.

Belgium takes in 50,000+ asylum seekers and refugees each year, and Belgium is smaller and less wealthy than Australia.

Poor old Australia can't take in a couple thousand asylum seekers from regions of the world where our defense forces are engaged.

Poor poor racist Australia.

Where is our humanity?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95324 Gender:	Re: How to stop the boats Reply #95 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 10:58pm Is Belgium getting its refugees from the British Chanel, or from the UNHCR? Australia can take as many refugees as it wants - it shouldn’t be encouraging people to risk their lives at sea. What refugee intake to drownings ratio do you think is an acceptable figure?
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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #96 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 11:47pm

Quote:

A people smuggler in Indonesia has told the ABC that none of the domestic policies being considered in Australia can stop the boats.

As the Federal Government looks for answers leading up to the election, the people smuggler says proposed measures like turning boats back or making it harder to get refugee status are not enough.

The smuggler says there are now too many people fleeing death and persecution and that factor outweighs Australia's attempts to stop them.

And while more boats reach Australian waters, some former refugees who have lost family members on the dangerous journey say the immigration system is oppressive.

The people smuggler, who is known to police, says he does not think the trade is threatened by any domestic policies being considered in Australia.

The man, who admitted to being involved in about 12 boats that have reached Australia this year, spoke to the ABC on condition of anonymity and said the conditions on Nauru and Manus Island were also not a deterrent.

AUDIO: Listen to George Roberts' report for PM (PM)
"Because those people can at least live there, right? They live there for 10 years, for 20 years, but they will live there. They won't be killed, they won't get bombed. At least they will survive, right?" he said.

Domestic policies of the Australian Government could not compete with the threat of death in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan that are the main force driving demand for people smuggling, he added.

"They make the conditions difficult or they make anything like that, the policies like that, but at least they are not going to kill these people."

Deep scars caused by perilous journey

The combination of rough seas and more boats is placing political pressure on the Government to find solutions.

A former employee of the Department of Immigration, Greg Lake, says officers are feeling the strain of the arrivals and the losses at sea.

VIDEO: Smuggler warns no policies can halt asylum seekers (7pm TV News NSW)
"I know my colleagues would have been challenged, but the last week, I know they'll be tired. They'll be frustrated, and I know that's how I felt when I witnessed similar sorts of things," he said.

But former refugees have far deeper scars caused by their journeys to Australia.

Ahmed Alzalimi's three daughters were among more than 350 people who drowned in the SIEV X tragedy in 2001 when they tried to join him in Australia.

His wife was one of only 44 survivors of the sinking.

In the months after the incident, she made up three beds each night for her lost children.

Mr Alzalimi says he feels like a wounded lion and that the longer you live with your wounds, the more you feel the pain.

The family wants to ensure that no other asylum seekers experience a similar loss.

Condition on Nauru, Manus Island no deterrent

As the election draws nearer and the debate over asylum seekers deepens, the people smuggler says the terrible conditions in countries where people are fleeing from is too powerful to be stopped.

He viewed the details of Australia's policy options by both major parties but says people within his network and customers say neither will be able to halt refugees.

As evidence, he pointed to the poor reputations of the conditions of Nauru and Manus Island which still did not serve as deterrents.

The man says he made up to $40,000 per boat he smuggled but he has now stopped organising boat departures and instead handles the money transfers.

He says his links stretch back through a network that spans Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Dubai, Malaysia and Indonesia.

The smuggler says any policy of turning boats back may have a small impact, but he doubted it would have any long-term effect because it was impossible to police and people would keep trying to get through.

In addition, he said making refugee status harder to attain once in Australia would also not deter asylum seekers.

But he did say arresting all the people smugglers might work, but since they bribe local Indonesian authorities they would not get arrested.

If authorities could shut down the borders to Malaysia and Indonesia, he said, that may block the passage to Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-18/smuggler-warns-government-policies-wont-ha...

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #97 - Jul 18^th, 2013 at 11:47pm

Quote:

The Indonesian justice minister has signed a letter that will make it harder for people from Iran to enter the country, a move which could slow the flow of people on their way to seeking asylum in Australia.

Indonesia's justice and human rights department has confirmed the signing of what is in effect a ministerial decree that will stop people from Iran obtaining a visa on arrival.

The minister, Amir Syamsuddin, has told the ABC the changes follow a request from Prime Minister Kevin Rudd last week.

A spokeswoman for Mr Rudd says the Prime Minister specifically mentioned Iranian arrivals during his recent discussions with Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

She says any action to tighten the arrangements is welcome.

Indonesia's visa system allows citizens from more than 60 countries to arrive in the country, pay a $US25 fee, and receive a visa for 30 days.

It is not yet known when the restriction on Iranians will take effect.

Indonesia is a transit destination for people on their way to Australia to seek asylum, with thousands taking the risky boat ride.

At the end of June, 12 per cent of people registered with the UN's refugee agency in Indonesia were from Iran.

Foreign Minister Bob Carr has said a large number of asylum seekers arriving in Australia, particularly those from Iran, are "economic migrants" rather than genuine refugees.

Closer look at visa regimes

Earlier this month Mr Yudhoyono and Mr Rudd announced a regional conference to discuss people smuggling.

At a later address to the National Press Club, Mr Rudd said one of the advantages to be achieved through such a conference was to examine regional visa regimes.

"That is, visas and regimes which allow too easy access to various countries in the region," he said.

The Prime Minister has said he wants to tighten refugee processing laws and has flagged that he may seek changes to the United Nations' 1951 Refugee Convention.

On Wednesday night the Australian Navy rescued another 120 asylum seekers after their boat got into trouble near Christmas Island.

Just a day earlier four people drowned when their boat capsized in rough seas.

An international policy expert says Mr Rudd's chances of changing the refugee convention are slim to none.

Professor William Maley, director of the Asia Pacific College of Diplomacy at the Australian National University, says Mr Rudd has very limited scope to change the text of the document.

Coalition vows to wage war on people smugglers

The Opposition's immigration spokesman, meanwhile, has declared Australia must wage a war against people smugglers.

Scott Morrison has accused the Government of being all talk and no action on stemming the flow of boats.

VIDEO: Scott Morrison describes 'war against people smuggling' (7.30)
He has told 7.30 that if the Coalition was elected it would put in place deterrence measures at every opportunity.

"We will stop the boats because we will respond to the situation that we're presented with and that is our resolve," he said.

"This is a war against people smuggling and you've got to approach it on that basis.

"We will not cease until it's done. Kevin Rudd does not believe you can stop the boats."

Mr Morrison said the Coalition has not ruled out withdrawing from the refugee convention.

"If you were to withdraw from the convention, it wouldn't take effect for a year, that's the process.

"What we think we have to do immediately is things that have an impact right now, and that is turning boats back where it's safe to do so, it is temporary protection visas, it is expanded regional offshore processing."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-18/indonesia-to-change-visa-requirements-for-...

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #98 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 8:54am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

Belgium takes in 50,000+ asylum seekers and refugees each year, and Belgium is smaller and less wealthy than Australia.

Poor old Australia can't take in a couple thousand asylum seekers from regions of the world where our defense forces are engaged.

Poor poor racist Australia.

Where is our humanity?

Quote:

Top ten most popular names in the Antwerp province:
Boys: Mohamed (109), Noah (96), Seppe (96), Daan (95), Kobe (94), Robbe (91), Senne (85), Alexander (84), Lars (77) and Thomas (76)

Quote:

Top ten most popular names in the Brussels Region:
Boys: Mohamed (236), Adam (194), Rayan (95), Ayoub (77), Gabriel (73), Alexandre (62), Anas (59), Hamza (59), Nathan (58) and Amine (57)

source

Belgium deserves all the problems it gets from its self-defeating, self-obliterating, culturally suicidal immigration program. I hope the Muslims wipe the floor with them.

This is what happens to a country when the liberals and the trendies are in charge of policy ~ and the idiotic indigenous population lets itself be led by the nose down the path to their own annihilation.

The only difference here is there aren't any smoke stacks like there was at Auschwitz.

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salad in Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5941	Re: How to stop the boats Reply #99 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 5:13pm John Smith wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:48pm: fine, suggest it to Tony ..... but until we suspend our UN membership, we stick to the agreement we signed The Australian Constitution trumps any other document in my opinion.
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Lord Herbert

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #100 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 5:32pm

salad in wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 5:13pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

fine, suggest it to Tony ..... but until we suspend our UN membership, we stick to the agreement we signed

The Australian Constitution trumps any other document in my opinion.

It's actually not very well known, but our so-called 'Agreements' with the UN are not binding in law.

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Aussie

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #101 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 5:39pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 5:32pm:

salad in wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 5:13pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

fine, suggest it to Tony ..... but until we suspend our UN membership, we stick to the agreement we signed

The Australian Constitution trumps any other document in my opinion.

It's actually not very well known, but our so-called 'Agreements' with the UN are not binding in law.

Half true. They are binding until we renounce them.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #102 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:31pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 12:50pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 8:00pm:

Another way to stop the boats:

Cease all offshore processing.

Provide decent accommodation and encourage citizens, perhaps from service clubs, to mentor refugees, assisting them to learn the language and culture.

Set a definite period for processing, with a court order required if the period needs to exceeded. Make the decision open to one appeal.

Work through the UN to persuade countries like Sri Lanka to stop terrorising their own populations.

Work with UN, Interpol and Indonesians to track down and incarcerate people smugglers.

Simple, workable and, above all, humane.

And meanwhile, encourage boats to keep coming, risk capsizing off Christmas Island, and watch more men, women and children drowning at sea.

The time's gone for onshore processing and allowing the boats to keep coming. The death toll's now over a thousand - that we know of. There is no humanity in a refugee policy that, for all its good intentions, rewards people who get to Australia by boat.

If you send those who get to Australia home, they risk further persecution. If you don't, they keep coming to Australia and risk drowning at sea.

It seems to me that the risk of persecution back in Sri Lanka or Iran is less than the risk of travelling to Christmas Island on ill-equipped fishing boats. I don't know this (and each case is unique), but it's now clear what the risk of people smuggling vessels is.

If Australia needs to amend the Refugee Treaty to save lives at sea, this seems far more humane to me.

White Australia policy re packed.

Belgium takes in 50,000+ asylum seekers and refugees each year, and Belgium is smaller and less wealthy than Australia.

Poor old Australia can't take in a couple thousand asylum seekers from regions of the world where our defense forces are engaged.

Poor poor racist Australia.

Where is our humanity?

Check out the road which Belgium is heading down.
We don't want to go there.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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Soren

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #103 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:38pm

Cheeses, you guys are thick. Drunk on media legalese.
Visa = a permit to enter a country for a DEFINED period. Meaning? Every visa has a 'enter no later than' date. SO a visa is not for just any time to enter a country. It;s not open ended. Do you follow so far or is it getting too complex?

Ok, if you are still with us - you enter within the defined period. The visa is for a specific period. Meaning?
You need to depart within that period. And here's the kicker - they need to know you have departed (ie you need to check out) otherwise all they can see in their databases is that you have entered but have not departed within the terms of your visa. Meaning? Meaning you are illegally in Indonesia (or wherever)
And this is where the thirdy-worldy/corrupt/lazy/malicious aspect of the Indo system comes into it. They KNOW that they do not have thousands of Iranian or Afghan or Paki visa overstayers. They KNOW these fvckers have taken to illegal boats.

Illegal? Yes. You try to walk through an airport departure lounge and say you do not need to present passport or visa or ticket, you're just going to walk right through that door and go. Or do that at a sea port. You fvckn try.`

But they bleat and plead and pretend that it is too hard. Indonesia is a corrupt and dishonest place. They pervert their own rules for bakshish.

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Datalife

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Re: How to stop the boats
Reply #104 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 8:06pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jul 18^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

Belgium takes in 50,000+ asylum seekers and refugees each year, and Belgium is smaller and less wealthy than Australia.

According to the UNHCR Asylum applications in Belgium in

2008 was 12250
2009 was 17190
2010 was 21760
2011 was 26000
2012 was 18520

Page 20 http://unhcr.org/asylumtrends/UNHCR%20ASYLUM%20TRENDS%202012_WEB.pdf

And as an aside, those figures include repeat applications.

Where are you getting 50 thousand plus per year and over what years and a reference.

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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007

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