Australian Politics Forum - Executing prisoners of war

freediver

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #285 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:41pm

Quote:

So if I understand correctly, you are using your failure to support a claim you made as an opportunity to coax me into saying that Muhammad slaughtered POWs and was an all round evil guy. Or in other words, deflecting.

I am saying (as I have said many times) there is no point giving examples of where Muslims used Muhammed slaughtering POWs to justify slaughtering POWs if you refuse to even acknowledge that Muhammed slaughtered POWs. You will just say it is an example of Muslims justly executing Jewish traitors (by the hundreds) following Muhammed's example of doing the same.

Our disagreement is not over evidence, but interpretation of the evidence. I don't see much point in finding more evidence for you to spin your BS excuses around. It does not get any clearer than the example set by Muhammed himself.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #286 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:57pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:41pm:

Our disagreement is not over evidence, but interpretation of the evidence.

No, its 100% about evidence. Its about you backing up your claim that Muhammad's followers slaughtered jews and specifically invoked the Qurayza example as justification. It makes precisely zero difference how either of us interpret what actually happened to the Qurayza.

And just so we're clear on what we're talking about:

Quote:

Muhammed's successors liked to take it as a sunna whenever they wanted to slaughter POWs.

Quote:

Muhammed engaged in collective punishment. His successors thought this was an excellent example to follow
, so they slaughtered Jews too.

Again, tell me if I'm misinterpreting, but I *THINK* you are saying these followers a) slaughtered jews and POWs and b) specifically invoked the noble example of what The Prophet did to the Qurayza as justification.

Its a claim that requires evidence. Just provide that evidence, thats all you need to do.

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« Last Edit: Mar 1^st, 2014 at 9:05pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #287 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:48pm

Quote:

No, its 100% about evidence.

Ah, so we do not disagree about what Muhammed did to those Qurayza Jews? This thread is 20 pages long. I'd hate to think I was arguing with someone who secretly agreed with me the whole time.

Quote:

Again, tell me if I'm misinterpreting, but I *THINK* you are saying these followers a) slaughtered jews and POWs and b) specifically invoked the noble example of what The Prophet did to the Qurayza as justification.

Are we even talking about the same example here? Were you joking when you said noble? If I have my timelines mixed up again, just say so.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #288 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:56am

Quote:

This thread is 20 pages long.

Indeed, and at least 4 of those pages is of you deflecting from you claim that Muhammad's followers invoked the Qurayza example when going on POW and jew killing rampages. I have no idea why this is so difficult for you - either they did it or they didn't. If you have no evidence then just say so, we don't want to deflect for another 4 pages.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:48pm:

Are we even talking about the same example here?

When Muhammad killed 600-800 Qurayza jews after the battle of the trench. Please provide evidence for your claim that his followers "thought this was an excellent example to follow and slaughtered jews too". Or in other words, that Muhammad's followers specifically invoked this example when going on jew and POW rampages.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #289 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 11:03am

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Indeed, and at least 4 of those pages is of you deflecting from you claim that Muhammad's followers invoked the Qurayza example when going on POW and jew killing rampages.

I am not deflecting. I patiently explained, over and over again, why I am not going to bother.

Quote:

When Muhammad killed 600-800 Qurayza jews after the battle of the trench.

Are you referring to the prisoners of war captured in that battle? Were you joking when you described this act as noble?

Quote:

Please provide evidence for your claim that his followers "thought this was an excellent example to follow and slaughtered jews too".

You are a follower. You personally described it as an excellent example to follow. You also described it as noble. It comes with the territory.

Quote:

Or in other words, that Muhammad's followers specifically invoked this example when going on jew and POW rampages.

Yes gandalf, "other words".

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #290 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 4:30pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 11:03am:

I am not deflecting. I patiently explained, over and over again, why I am not going to bother.

You are deflecting, and you are not explaining anything. All you are doing is trying to get me to say that Muhammad slaughtered POWs. You don't need me to say that to support your claim that Muhammad's slaughtered jews because they thought the Qurayza incident was an excellent example to follow.

Come on FD, be a sport - just show me an incident of Muhammad's followers slaughtering jews and saying "we did this because Muhammad did it, and we think its an excellent example to follow".

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 11:03am:

You are a follower.

ِAh yes, I slaughter jews. Thats right, nearly forgot about that. Tongue

Any other examples of muslim followers "slaughtering jews" because they thought the Qurayza incident was an excellent example to follow?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96462	Re: Executing prisoners of war Reply #291 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 4:46pm Maybe Abu and Falah have taken down a few. At any rate, it’s all there in the Wiki.
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freediver

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #292 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 5:35pm

Quote:

You are deflecting, and you are not explaining anything. All you are doing is trying to get me to say that Muhammad slaughtered POWs.

I think you have figured it out Gandalf. Once we are agreed that we have one example, then we can move on to example number two.

Quote:

You don't need me to say that to support your claim that Muhammad's slaughtered jews because they thought the Qurayza incident was an excellent example to follow.

I think you are twisting my words here a bit, on two counts.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #293 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:21pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 5:35pm:

I think you are twisting my words here a bit, on two counts.

Perhaps I am. I did ask for clarification.

Care to explain now what you meant by:

Quote:

Muhammed's successors liked to take it as a sunna whenever they wanted to slaughter POWs.

followed by...

Quote:

Muhammed engaged in collective punishment.
His successors thought this was an excellent example to follow
, so they slaughtered Jews too.

Also, would you mind explaining to me why its so crucial for me to acknowledge that Muhammad killed POWs in order for you to substantiate the above claims? Are you ever going to substantiate the above claims?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #294 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:32pm

As I have been explaining, I can't be bothered. That is not the same as needing something. You are the one making all the demands here.

I did not mean that they were motivated to kill POWs by Muhammed's example. I meant that it was their excuse, or justification. People normally kill other people for far more proximate reasons. Muhammed and Islam permit this.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Executing prisoners of war
Reply #295 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:32pm:

I did not mean that they were motivated to kill POWs by Muhammed's example.

Thank you, at least thats something.

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:32pm:

I meant that it was their excuse, or justification.

Thank you again, for clarifying this after 5 pages of deflecting.

However, I have to ask for some evidence for this. Just one example of muslims slaughtering jews and using that example as an "excuse" or "justification". I don't think this is unreasonable.

It is strange too, that for all the Prophet-inspired hatred and sanctioned killing of jews, why did so many jews find refuge in muslim lands? Are you aware that most of the jews fleeing the Spanish Inquisition found refuge in the Ottoman Empire?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49400 At my desk.	Re: Executing prisoners of war Reply #296 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:14pm Of course, Muslims point this out constantly on this forum. It's as if they are aware that there is something not quite right in what Muhammed did.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Executing prisoners of war Reply #297 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:55pm So no examples then?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49400 At my desk.	Re: Executing prisoners of war Reply #298 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 9:23pm Just the one, for now.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49400 At my desk.	Re: Executing prisoners of war Reply #299 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 12:36pm And of course, the wikipedia article I originally linked to.
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