Australian Politics Forum - Muhammed the thief

freediver

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #165 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 8:08am

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FD am I right in concluding that you are excusing the Meccan leaders who conducted the persecution of the non-violent muslims and attempted assassination of Muhammad?

No. See how easy it is to give a straight answer Gandalf? You should try it.

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I just find it extraordinary that after being very candid in your wiki article about the fact the muslims were persecuted and forced to flee - you can't seem to bring yourself to admitting such action was wrong.

I don't know whether it was wrong. I don't really care either. No-one is attempting to justify their actions. Nor is it relevant to whether Muhammad's "retaliation" can be justified. You are however attempting to justify Muhammad's actions.

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Or do you in fact want to entertain the idea that the muslims were indeed mistreated, and in fact a declaration of war had been made against them - for which Muhammad was justified in attacking back?

Gandalf am I right that this is another attempt by you to justify collective punishment, in the form of opportunistic theft and murder?

Do you only do this for your fellow Muslims?

Did you only develop your fondness for collective punishment after converting to Islam? Or did you grow up stealing poo to get back at the man?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #166 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 8:33am

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 8:08am:

I don't know whether it was wrong. I don't really care either.

You seem to spend a lot of time pontificating over something you claim you don't really care about. you've spend all these years judging muslims who do think it was wrong. You mock them with your childish little dig about dog bites and children spitting. You used to mock the idea that there was any assassination attempt at all (though you seem to have backpeddled on that). In over 4 years discussing this with you you've done nothing but question and undermine the idea that it was wrong.

If you ask me, this claim that you don't really care is complete BS.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #167 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 8:40am

Quote:

You seem to spend a lot of time pontificating over something you claim you don't really care about.

I "pontificate" on the things you post. I know exactly what you post because it is right there in front of me. We don't argue about the Meccan "persecution" because I don't particularly care whether you are lying about that, because it is no excuse for Muhammad's behaviour. I may get to it eventually, but for now I am just as happy to accept your version. Hence, no argument, just a desperate attempt from you to avoid the question.

Quote:

Or do you in fact want to entertain the idea that the muslims were indeed mistreated, and in fact a declaration of war had been made against them - for which Muhammad was justified in attacking back?

Gandalf am I right that this is another attempt by you to justify collective punishment, in the form of opportunistic theft and murder?

Do you only do this for your fellow Muslims?

Did you only develop your fondness for collective punishment after converting to Islam? Or did you grow up stealing poo to get back at the man?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #168 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 9:31am

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 8:40am:

We don't argue about the Meccan "persecution" because I don't particularly care whether you are lying about that, because it is no excuse for Muhammad's behaviour.

But you do care FD.

You dismiss the persecution as nothing but dog bites and children spitting.

You mocked the idea that there was an attempted assassination on Muhammad

You go out of your way to mention that the persecution and eventual eviction happened only after Muhammad threatened the Meccan's livelihood

Your entire meme is built around the insistence the war Muhammad carried out against the Meccans was started by Muhammad. For you to admit the fact that it was the opposite, would blow your entire meme out of the water.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #169 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 1:21pm

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But you do care FD.

I care to the extent that I think it is a shame they did not kill Muhammad.

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You dismiss the persecution as nothing but dog bites and children spitting.

And trying to kill Muhammad.

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You go out of your way to mention that the persecution and eventual eviction happened only after Muhammad threatened the Meccan's livelihood

He probably threatened to kill them. When he retook Mecca he slaughtered many pagans. He destroyed all the pagan idols around the kaaba and effectively stole the Kaaba for himself. He was not merely "threatening" there income. In the end he stole the lot for himself.

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Your entire meme is built around the insistence the war Muhammad carried out against the Meccans was started by Muhammad.

Feel free to quote me Gandalf. As I keep telling you, it was only a war after many years of Muhammad stealing from the Meccans and murdering them.

Quote:

Or do you in fact want to entertain the idea that the muslims were indeed mistreated, and in fact a declaration of war had been made against them - for which Muhammad was justified in attacking back?

Gandalf am I right that this is another attempt by you to justify collective punishment, in the form of opportunistic theft and murder?

Do you only do this for your fellow Muslims?

Did you only develop your fondness for collective punishment after converting to Islam? Or did you grow up stealing poo to get back at the man?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammed the thief Reply #170 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 4:08pm freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 1:21pm: He probably threatened to kill them. ya probably. But you know there's a way to put that beyond doubt - just wack it in wikipedia, and hey presto its gospel truth.
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freediver

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #171 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 6:15pm

Quote:

Or do you in fact want to entertain the idea that the muslims were indeed mistreated, and in fact a declaration of war had been made against them - for which Muhammad was justified in attacking back?

Gandalf am I right that this is another attempt by you to justify collective punishment, in the form of opportunistic theft and murder?

Do you only do this for your fellow Muslims?

Did you only develop your fondness for collective punishment after converting to Islam? Or did you grow up stealing poo to get back at the man?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammed the thief Reply #172 - Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 6:22pm keep in on your clipboard FD. Looks like you'll be pasting it quite a bit.
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freediver

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Re: Muhammed the thief
Reply #173 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 1:56pm

Can anyone make sense of this? Muhammad robbed and murdered Meccan traders for years. Eventually they tried to attack him, but it wasn't because of Muhammad robbing and murdering Meccan traders, it was because the Meccans had kicked him out of Mecca prior to that....

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:21pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:11pm:

The Meccans wanted Muhammad to stop raiding caravans and murdering innocent traders

Ah yes, of course the Meccans (Quraysh) are the victims here. Grin

Are you suggesting that the innocent traders that Muhammad murdered and robbed were not victims?

Are you going to invoke the mindless collective argument again Gandalf?

no, I'm suggesting you are looking for any excuse to apologise for the Qurayza's treason and to pretend there wasn't just cause to punish them for their actions. Now you are introducing another, but well worn apology: excusing the Quraysh for the forced eviction of peaceful protesters from their homes and ceasing all their property - or pretending it didn't happen.

Did the Qurayza stab Muhammad in the back because they felt so terrible about the poor murdered and robbed traders? Thats a novel line - you should try that one. tsk tsk, yawn

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:18pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 12:41pm:

Why did you laugh at your own suggestion that the Meccans murdered by Muhammad during his career as a highway robber were victims?

I wasn't laughing at the idea the caravaners were victims. I was laughing at such blinkered historical revisionism that identifies the caravan raids as the cause of the war - and not the forced eviction of peaceful muslims from their homes and ceasing of their property, which as far as I can tell you still prefer to pretend didn't happen.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammed the thief Reply #174 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 3:58pm Thats not what I said FD.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Muhammed the thief Reply #175 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 4:31pm Would it be fair to say that the traders who were robbed and/or murdered by Muhammad were victims?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muhammed the thief Reply #176 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 4:44pm of course. Now your turn - is it fair to say that non-violent protesters getting evicted from their home and their property ceased were victims? Furthermore, would it be fair to say that the war that involved the caravan raids was started by this act?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Muhammed the thief Reply #177 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 4:53pm What do you think they were victims of? I wouldn't call it a war. I would call it a career of robbing caravans and murdering traders, that eventually lead to war after Muhammad grew rich and powerful from his theft and murder. When do you think this war started?
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Question: Should Israel Take Compensation From Germany
No. Nazis stole stuff fair and square 0 (0.0%) No. It seems too Islamic 0 (0.0%) Yes. People have a right to compensation 5 (83.3%) No. Jews should let bygones be bygones 1 (16.7%) No. People should be free to persecute minorities 0 (0.0%) Total votes: 6 « Last Modified by: True Colours on: Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 4:05pm »