Australian Politics Forum - Hung Parliament

Lobo

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #30 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:37pm

skippy. wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:31pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

Why would it be hard to imagine the GREENS entering into an agreement with the Liberals? If you know anything about our politics you would know both major parties are centre right yet the GREEENS have an agreement to back supply with Labor, and that's all it is. There is no formal coalition, unlike the Liberal party, Labor can and does rule in its own right, with just independents or the GREENS in the last election guaranteeing supply. You do know what guaranteeing supply means don't you?
Why would a Texan won't to read let alone post on an aussie political forum? Go on humour me.

Manners, skip....
The bloke says he is trying to learn ....

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FrostedTex

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #31 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:37pm

skippy. wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:31pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

Why would it be hard to imagine the GREENS entering into an agreement with the Liberals? If you know anything about our politics you would know both major parties are centre right yet the GREEENS have an agreement to back supply with Labor, and that's all it is. There is no formal coalition, unlike the Liberal party, Labor can and does rule in its own right, with just independents or the GREENS in the last election guaranteeing supply. You do know what guaranteeing supply means don't you?
Why would a Texan won't to read let alone post on an aussie political forum? Go on humour me.

I don't know anything at all about your politics -- that's why I'm here.

I'm a Texan on an Aussie political forum; because, I've been studying American politics since I was ten. I'm a political consultant, and I've been working on campaigns for a very long time. My passion is both history and politics -- I hold dual degrees in both with a history focus on early-American political theory and a political science degree with a focus on political philosophy and constitutional theory. In short -- I love politics.

I'm on this forum because I've become interested in the domestic politics of other countries, and I want to learn. :shrug: I realized I know very little about Aussie politics, so this is one of my ways of rectifying that situation.

I certainly come in peace -- I'm just trying to learn and share any of my knowledge to anyone who asks.

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I'm an American political consultant eager to discuss either American politics or the very little I know about Australian politics. I'm eager for any friendly/respectful discussion or debate!

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FrostedTex

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #32 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:38pm

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:37pm:

skippy. wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:31pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

Why would it be hard to imagine the GREENS entering into an agreement with the Liberals? If you know anything about our politics you would know both major parties are centre right yet the GREEENS have an agreement to back supply with Labor, and that's all it is. There is no formal coalition, unlike the Liberal party, Labor can and does rule in its own right, with just independents or the GREENS in the last election guaranteeing supply. You do know what guaranteeing supply means don't you?
Why would a Texan won't to read let alone post on an aussie political forum? Go on humour me.

I don't know anything at all about your politics -- that's why I'm here.

I'm a Texan on an Aussie political forum; because, I've been studying American politics since I was ten. I'm a political consultant, and I've been working on campaigns for a very long time. My passion is both history and politics -- I hold dual degrees in both with a history focus on early-American political history and a political science degree with a focus on political philosophy and constitutional theory. In short -- I love politics.

I'm on this forum because I've become interested in the domestic politics of other countries, and I want to learn. :shrug: I realized I know very little about Aussie politics, so this is one of my ways of rectifying that situation.

I certainly come in peace -- I'm just trying to learn and share any of my knowledge to anyone who asks.

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I'm an American political consultant eager to discuss either American politics or the very little I know about Australian politics. I'm eager for any friendly/respectful discussion or debate!

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #33 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:39pm

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

It would be hard to imagine the Greens entering a coalition with the Liberal Party as it is at the moment - since John Howard it has become a home for lunatic conservatives like Cory Bernardi and Tony Abbott.

A Liberal Party that actually stood for what the Liberal Party originally stood for - the Liberal Party of Menzies, Gorton and Fraser - say, led by someone like Malcolm Turnbull could easily form a coalition with the Greens.

Hopefully, one day, the nutbags like Minchin, Bernardi, Abbott, Mirabella, etc etc etc will disappear up Sarah Palin's arsehole and a real Liberal Party may re-emerge

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FrostedTex

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #34 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:41pm

____ wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:36pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

The Libs are roughly 50/50 small l moderate liberals and conservatives. A battle is going on within the party which is under control at the moment.

Lab was a centre left which is now right of centre.

Since the Libs looked like getting a landslide, splinter parties were created.

Katter KAP // Clive Palmer's PUP
Then we have Nats who are in coalition with the Libs

Then we have the Greens, the only left wing party.

Australia is currently a right wing country heading right.

If The small L Libs get control of their party, Australian politics will move more centre.

Interesting! This actually astonishes me. I had no idea that Australia was shifting to the right. Can you give me any obvious reasons as to why this happening?

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____

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #35 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:41pm

Lobo wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:34pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

I'm tempted to begin with...."Howdy, Tex."
But I will behave myself and refrain from doing so....

You ask why the Greens would want to align themselves With the Libs...
Damn good question, and one I am trying to get an answer to myself in another thread.
Without much success, I might add.

If Greens can manipulate the situation where the moderates in the Liberal Party gain control I think that would be a great outcome.
Think in some areas Greens could work with them.

Moderates Liberals are compassionate and decent people.
Could Labor work with the likes of Malcolm Turnbull?

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Lobo

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #36 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:42pm

____ wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:36pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

The Libs are roughly 50/50 small l moderate liberals and conservatives. A battle is going on within the party which is under control at the moment.

Lab was a centre left which is now right of centre.

Since the Libs looked like getting a landslide, splinter parties were created.

Katter KAP // Clive Palmer's PUP
Then we have Nats who are in coalition with the Libs

Then we have the Greens, the only left wing party.

Australia is currently a right wing country heading right.

If The small L Libs get control of their party, Australian politics will move more centre.

You forgot to mention that the "small l's" allowed themselves to be bullied into electing a nut-job to run their party....

Wink

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #37 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:44pm

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:37pm:

skippy. wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:31pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

Why would it be hard to imagine the GREENS entering into an agreement with the Liberals? If you know anything about our politics you would know both major parties are centre right yet the GREEENS have an agreement to back supply with Labor, and that's all it is. There is no formal coalition, unlike the Liberal party, Labor can and does rule in its own right, with just independents or the GREENS in the last election guaranteeing supply. You do know what guaranteeing supply means don't you?
Why would a Texan won't to read let alone post on an aussie political forum? Go on humour me.

I don't know anything at all about your politics -- that's why I'm here.

I'm a Texan on an Aussie political forum; because, I've been studying American politics since I was ten. I'm a political consultant, and I've been working on campaigns for a very long time. My passion is both history and politics -- I hold dual degrees in both with a history focus on early-American political theory and a political science degree with a focus on political philosophy and constitutional theory. In short -- I love politics.

I'm on this forum because I've become interested in the domestic politics of other countries, and I want to learn. :shrug: I realized I know very little about Aussie politics, so this is one of my ways of rectifying that situation.

I certainly come in peace -- I'm just trying to learn and share any of my knowledge to anyone who asks.

Good on you.

Happy to answer any questions you have.

Although I have one to start with:

You wrote:
I hold dual degrees in both with a history focus on early-American political theory and a political science degree with a focus on political philosophy and constitutional theory.

WTF is "political science"!?!?!? I frikking hate that term

WTF is scientific about politics?

Stupidest expression I have ever heard in my life. Like someone referring to "economic science".. Or "social science".

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FrostedTex

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #38 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:45pm

____ wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:41pm:

Lobo wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:34pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

I'm tempted to begin with...."Howdy, Tex."
But I will behave myself and refrain from doing so....

You ask why the Greens would want to align themselves With the Libs...
Damn good question, and one I am trying to get an answer to myself in another thread.
Without much success, I might add.

If Greens can manipulate the situation where the moderates in the Liberal Party gain control I think that would be a great outcome.
Think in some areas Greens could work with them.

Moderates Liberals are compassionate and decent people.
Could Labor work with the likes of Malcolm Turnbull?

Again, this is very interesting. Setting aside the policy issues involved -- it's most interesting purely from an electoral standpoint. If there is a power struggle within the Liberty Party (the same is happening within our Republican Party) and the Green Party is banking on the moderate wing winning out then supporting the moderates in their leadership bid would create leverage and possibly move the Liberal party toward the center or even center-left.

The ideological poles of our two major parties shifted once before, so it certainly wouldn't be unheard of for a political party to completely shift ideological poles. Is that a distinct possibility?

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Lobo

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #39 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:45pm

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:37pm:

skippy. wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:31pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

Why would it be hard to imagine the GREENS entering into an agreement with the Liberals? If you know anything about our politics you would know both major parties are centre right yet the GREEENS have an agreement to back supply with Labor, and that's all it is. There is no formal coalition, unlike the Liberal party, Labor can and does rule in its own right, with just independents or the GREENS in the last election guaranteeing supply. You do know what guaranteeing supply means don't you?
Why would a Texan won't to read let alone post on an aussie political forum? Go on humour me.

I don't know anything at all about your politics -- that's why I'm here.

I'm a Texan on an Aussie political forum; because, I've been studying American politics since I was ten. I'm a political consultant, and I've been working on campaigns for a very long time. My passion is both history and politics -- I hold dual degrees in both with a history focus on early-American political theory and a political science degree with a focus on political philosophy and constitutional theory. In short -- I love politics.

I'm on this forum because I've become interested in the domestic politics of other countries, and I want to learn. :shrug: I realized I know very little about Aussie politics, so this is one of my ways of rectifying that situation.

I certainly come in peace -- I'm just trying to learn and share any of my knowledge to anyone who asks.

SLOL.....
You've just left everyone on here for dead.....

Love it!!

Grin

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #40 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:46pm

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:41pm:

____ wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:36pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

The Libs are roughly 50/50 small l moderate liberals and conservatives. A battle is going on within the party which is under control at the moment.

Lab was a centre left which is now right of centre.

Since the Libs looked like getting a landslide, splinter parties were created.

Katter KAP // Clive Palmer's PUP
Then we have Nats who are in coalition with the Libs

Then we have the Greens, the only left wing party.

Australia is currently a right wing country heading right.

If The small L Libs get control of their party, Australian politics will move more centre.

Interesting! This actually astonishes me. I had no idea that Australia was shifting to the right. Can you give me any obvious reasons as to why this happening?

No. Not really.

An easy, shallow answer is that we are blindly copying the USA, and our "right" is copying tea-party strategies (which they are)

Buggered if I know why people are falling for it though.

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____

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #41 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:48pm

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:41pm:

____ wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:36pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

The Libs are roughly 50/50 small l moderate liberals and conservatives. A battle is going on within the party which is under control at the moment.

Lab was a centre left which is now right of centre.

Since the Libs looked like getting a landslide, splinter parties were created.

Katter KAP // Clive Palmer's PUP
Then we have Nats who are in coalition with the Libs

Then we have the Greens, the only left wing party.

Australia is currently a right wing country heading right.

If The small L Libs get control of their party, Australian politics will move more centre.

Interesting! This actually astonishes me. I had no idea that Australia was shifting to the right. Can you give me any obvious reasons as to why this happening?

Xenophobia and a wealthy nation who has turned mean spirited.
I personally think it's due to the population make up. A lot of baby boomers ageing and so thinking smaller.
May have to wait until a large chunk of this older group go to god, or a major issue occurring to bring Australia back toward centre.

There again if Greens and others can assist the moderates in the Libs it will start to force Lab to revalue their own lack of principles and so force a change earlier.

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #42 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:49pm

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:45pm:

____ wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:41pm:

Lobo wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:34pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

I'm tempted to begin with...."Howdy, Tex."
But I will behave myself and refrain from doing so....

You ask why the Greens would want to align themselves With the Libs...
Damn good question, and one I am trying to get an answer to myself in another thread.
Without much success, I might add.

If Greens can manipulate the situation where the moderates in the Liberal Party gain control I think that would be a great outcome.
Think in some areas Greens could work with them.

Moderates Liberals are compassionate and decent people.
Could Labor work with the likes of Malcolm Turnbull?

Again, this is very interesting. Setting aside the policy issues involved -- it's most interesting purely from an electoral standpoint. If there is a power struggle within the Liberty Party (the same is happening within our Republican Party) and the Green Party is banking on the moderate wing winning out then supporting the moderates in their leadership bid would create leverage and possibly move the Liberal party toward the center or even center-left.

The ideological poles of our two major parties shifted once before, so it certainly wouldn't be unheard of for a political party to completely shift ideological poles. Is that a distinct possibility?

Hard to see at this point - but yes - I think it is a distinct possibility.

Nice idea - I think only an outsider could have come up with it - it is just so crazy it could actually be right.

Good to get your perspective.

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FrostedTex

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #43 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:49pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:44pm:

Happy to answer any questions you have.

Although I have one to start with:

You wrote:
I hold dual degrees in both with a history focus on early-American political theory and a political science degree with a focus on political philosophy and constitutional theory.

WTF is "political science"!?!?!? I frikking hate that term

WTF is scientific about politics?

Stupidest expression I have ever heard in my life. Like someone referring to "economic science".. Or "social science".

I completely agree. In fact, I think political science should be treated as a branch of sociology but alas...

To answer your question, it boils down to political "scientists" wanting to quantify the political process. I hate it. Fundamentally, politics is about human nature and I don't believe you can quantify human nature. Politics is art not math. Political scientists seem to always be in search of that elusive formula of polling data and demographic information that wil allow them to predict the future as if they were gazing into a crystal ball. It's nonsense.

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____

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Re: Hung Parliament
Reply #44 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:51pm

Lobo wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:42pm:

____ wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:36pm:

FrostedTex wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 8:24pm:

So your minor parties trend left/right...it's hard for me to imagine your Green Party entering a coalition with the Liberal Party (hard to get used to your center-right party being referred to as 'Liberal'). What do they have to gain? Presumably they're being promised a portion of their party's agenda becomes part of the government's agenda which is something both Liberal and Labor could promise....so why would they ever enter into a coalition with the Liberal party? I use the Greens as an example, but I'm sure there are others.

Does everything hinge on the independents? How many of them do you have?

The Libs are roughly 50/50 small l moderate liberals and conservatives. A battle is going on within the party which is under control at the moment.

Lab was a centre left which is now right of centre.

Since the Libs looked like getting a landslide, splinter parties were created.

Katter KAP // Clive Palmer's PUP
Then we have Nats who are in coalition with the Libs

Then we have the Greens, the only left wing party.

Australia is currently a right wing country heading right.

If The small L Libs get control of their party, Australian politics will move more centre.

You forgot to mention that the "small l's" allowed themselves to be bullied into electing a nut-job to run their party....

Wink

And Labor's left faction ... are they being led right so to make the party more electable in the short term.

Rhetorical, more than a question.

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