Australian Politics Forum - Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi

True Colours

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #30 - Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 9:21am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:21am:

This must be the verse that inspired the Christian massacres throughout history:

'History' ~ yes. Correct.

And then came the separation of church and state ~ and the secularisation of Western nations' affairs. It heralded the beginning of modern civilisation.

Ahh yes and with that the biggest wars and massacres in history; WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, Hiroshima, Colonisation, etc.

The Australian Aborigines must have been so happy that secularisation had saved them from being wiped...oh wait a second, scratch that.

Secularisation has brought more barbarism than the world has ever seen before.

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shockresist

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #31 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 8:02am

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

Yadda, if you truly believe, do you mind if I give you a deadly poison and drink it for me?

MK 16:17-18 Those who believe are able to handle snakes and drink any deadly poison without suffering harm.

Luke 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him....Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I do not have the power to perform 'miracles' for fools.

All power comes from God.

So you would like me to take some poison ?

Im very sorry Yadda, I wont tempt you, I thought you were a believer.

Its just another aburd claim that Beleivers can drink poison without getting injured.

Other absurd claims in the bible include,

-God takes part in a wrestling match. He wins by injuring Jacob's hip.

-Entering the holy place without wearing bells can result in death

-A man has an obligation to produce a child with his brother's widow. If he refuses, his sister-in-law is to spit in his face in front of the elders.

-The Lord sought to kill Moses

-The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #32 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:04am

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

Ahh yes and with that the biggest wars and massacres in history; WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, Hiroshima,

These were wars fought by democracies to prevent them becoming captive to the same sort of tyranny over free people that the churches once enjoyed before the separation of church and state.

The tribal nature of human beings ensures there will always be the potential for warring with ones neighbours.

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

Colonisation, etc.

Throughout history colonisation has brought with it more blessings than damnations.

If it were not for the 'colonisation' of Western technology, medical discoveries, education, law, etc - most of the world today ~ including the Muslim countries ~ would be living as they did in biblical times.

These once-occupied countries have ever since been the benefactors of squillions in annual Foreign Aid and Special Circumstance payments (tsunamis, earthquakes) from the former colonialist countries.

Any debt owed, has been paid off multiple times. Endless 'Sorry Money'. Endless Middle Class White Guilt for the decisions of Queen Victoria's ruling class. Generational guilt.

And then again, the former colonialist powers have imported so many of the people from their former colonies that parts of cities up and down the length and breadth of the UK look like a foreign ..... waaaaaait for it ..... colonisation.

Get on a bus or train in London today and you'll be hard-pressed to spot a white face, let alone an English face. Even the drivers are wearing turbans.

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

The Australian Aborigines must have been so happy that secularisation had saved them from being wiped...oh wait a second, scratch that.

There are more aborigines today than there were when Captain Cook arrived at Botany Bay. The only ones who are 'wiping out' the aborigines are they themselves ~ ably assisted by cradle-to-grave welfare.

True Colours ~ is it really necessary for me to baby-walk you through the answers to your questions? Isn't it time you took stock of these matters and provided your own answers from a reasonable and Western-educated point of view?

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Yadda

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #33 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:35am

Yadda wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

Quote:

Western policies are to blame, says Livingstone
By Andrew Sparrow, Political Correspondent
20/07/2005
Ken Livingstone yesterday blamed western policies for contributing to the spread of the extremist beliefs that inspired the London bombers.
......In a separate move, Anjem Choudary, the UK leader of the militant Islamist group al-Muhajiroun, interviewed for BBC Radio 4's Today programme said.....
"The British Government wants to...........divide the Muslim community into moderates and extremists, whereas this classification doesn't exist in Islam," he said.
"Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one....."

Google;
ANJEM "Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one"

As far as [ISLAM and] devout moslems are concerned, being a moslem, is like being pregnant, YOU EITHER ARE, OR, YOU ARE NOT!

AND, ISLAMIC law makes it clear that those who oppose ANY part of the tenets and laws of ISLAM - ARE NOT MOSLEMS.

shockresist,

Anjem Choudary has said....

"Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one."

What do moslems [practising moslems] call non-practising moslems ?

And being a non-practising moslem is a capital offence in ISLAM ?

That is the truth isn't it, shockresist ?

And isn't it the truth that you would like to see moslems in Australia be able to to [eventually] implement Sharia law in Australia ?

And isn't the implementation of Sharia law in Australia, what every moslem living in Australia is obligated to struggle [i.e. Jihad] towards ?

e.g.
Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam...
...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law.
"We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-countr...i

FROM ISLAMIC LAW

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

And shockresist,

And isn't it true

that the only thing which is protecting non-practising moslems from the 'fervor' and 'zeal' of 'practising' moslems in Australia of 'defending ISLAM' [by attacking and killing apostate Australian moslems], .....is Australian non-ISLAMIC law ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #34 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am

shockresist,

It is true isn't it, that moslems, all moslems, are 'nominally' the members of a religion/group that sanctions the killing of people who make the choice [for themselves], to not believe what they [moslems] believe ?

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Q #1,
And that being true, where is the place for a persons free conscience, in the life of a moslem ?

Q #2,
Isn't it true, that if a person is a 'practising moslem', there is no place for him to obey his own conscience [i.e. where his own conscience conflicts with ISLAMIC law] ?

Dictionary;
conscience = = a person’s moral sense of right and wrong.

Q #3,
Isn't it true that ISLAM is a perfect unchanging religion [from Mohammed's time], and for ISLAM to remain pure, ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws can never be amended ?

Because to amended ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws would be a blasphemy and a capital offence [in ISLAM].

Isn't that true ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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shockresist

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #35 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

shockresist,

It is true isn't it, that moslems, all moslems, are 'nominally' the members of a religion/group that sanctions the killing of people who make the choice [for themselves], to not believe what they [moslems] believe ?

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Q #1,
And that being true, where is the place for a persons free conscience, in the life of a moslem ?

Q #2,
Isn't it true, that if a person is a 'practising moslem', there is no place for him to obey his own conscience [i.e. where his own conscience conflicts with ISLAMIC law] ?

Dictionary;
conscience = = a person’s moral sense of right and wrong.

Q #3,
Isn't it true that ISLAM is a perfect unchanging religion [from Mohammed's time], and for ISLAM to remain pure, ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws can never be amended ?

Because to amended ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws would be a blasphemy and a capital offence [in ISLAM].

Isn't that true ?

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #36 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:41am

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

To be fair, Yadda is bringing the discussion back to the topic of the thread.

Personally I have never been a fan of countering absurd christian theological attacks on islam by throwing back equally absurd theological attacks on christianity. Its a copout as far as I'm concerned. Islam can answer for itself without resorting to irrelevant mudslinging of other religions.

Unfortunately, just about every defender of islam I have seen here (including non-muslims) resorts to this stale tactic.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #37 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:45am

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

shockresist,

It is true isn't it, that moslems, all moslems, are 'nominally' the members of a religion/group that sanctions the killing of people who make the choice [for themselves], to not believe what they [moslems] believe ?

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Q #1,
And that being true, where is the place for a persons free conscience, in the life of a moslem ?

Q #2,
Isn't it true, that if a person is a 'practising moslem', there is no place for him to obey his own conscience [i.e. where his own conscience conflicts with ISLAMIC law] ?

Dictionary;
conscience = = a person’s moral sense of right and wrong.

Q #3,
Isn't it true that ISLAM is a perfect unchanging religion [from Mohammed's time], and for ISLAM to remain pure, ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws can never be amended ?

Because to amended ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws would be a blasphemy and a capital offence [in ISLAM].

Isn't that true ?

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

shockresist,

Look at the title of the thread.

The thread is about how 'a practising Muslim' is defined [by ISLAM].

Quote:

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

shockresist,

That is very magnanimous of you.

But how are practising moslems [guided by pure ISLAM] obligated to react, towards persons who reject ISLAM, and particularly ex-moslems ?

[pssssst! shockresist, i know that this is a difficult question to put to you, being a NONE-practising moslem Tongue

n.b. YOU HAVE CONFIRMED THIS, with your last reply. Correct ? ]

+++

Read what people who have known ISLAM intimately, think of ISLAM !

Ex-moslems!

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

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« Last Edit: Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:52am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #38 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:47am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

To be fair, Yadda is bringing the discussion back to the topic of the thread.

Personally I have never been a fan of countering absurd christian theological attacks on islam by throwing back equally absurd theological attacks on christianity. Its a copout as far as I'm concerned. Islam can answer for itself without resorting to irrelevant mudslinging of other religions.

Unfortunately, just about every defender of islam I have seen here (including non-muslims) resorts to this stale tactic.

Thank you, gandalf.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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shockresist

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #39 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 11:49am

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:45am:

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

shockresist,

It is true isn't it, that moslems, all moslems, are 'nominally' the members of a religion/group that sanctions the killing of people who make the choice [for themselves], to not believe what they [moslems] believe ?

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Q #1,
And that being true, where is the place for a persons free conscience, in the life of a moslem ?

Q #2,
Isn't it true, that if a person is a 'practising moslem', there is no place for him to obey his own conscience [i.e. where his own conscience conflicts with ISLAMIC law] ?

Dictionary;
conscience = = a person’s moral sense of right and wrong.

Q #3,
Isn't it true that ISLAM is a perfect unchanging religion [from Mohammed's time], and for ISLAM to remain pure, ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws can never be amended ?

Because to amended ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws would be a blasphemy and a capital offence [in ISLAM].

Isn't that true ?

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

shockresist,

Look at the title of the thread.

The thread is about how 'a practising Muslim' is defined [by ISLAM].

Quote:

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

shockresist,

That is very magnanimous of you.

But how are practising moslems [guided by pure ISLAM] obligated to react, towards persons who reject ISLAM, and particularly ex-moslems ?

[pssssst! shockresist, i know that this is a difficult question to put to you, being a NONE-practising moslem Tongue

n.b. YOU HAVE CONFIRMED THIS, with your last reply. Correct ? ]

+++

Read what people who have known ISLAM intimately, think of ISLAM !

Ex-moslems!

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

I personally have never met a muslim who has converted out of islam.

But if I ever did I would sit with the individual and try to understand why he left, try to understand his situation, work out where the person went wrong etc etc.

If I try to help the individual back to islam and he dosent come back then I cant force him back.

Thats the choice he has made and one day his creator will be the one to judge him.

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Yadda

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #40 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 11:49am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:45am:

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

shockresist,

It is true isn't it, that moslems, all moslems, are 'nominally' the members of a religion/group that sanctions the killing of people who make the choice [for themselves], to not believe what they [moslems] believe ?

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Q #1,
And that being true, where is the place for a persons free conscience, in the life of a moslem ?

Q #2,
Isn't it true, that if a person is a 'practising moslem', there is no place for him to obey his own conscience [i.e. where his own conscience conflicts with ISLAMIC law] ?

Dictionary;
conscience = = a person’s moral sense of right and wrong.

Q #3,
Isn't it true that ISLAM is a perfect unchanging religion [from Mohammed's time], and for ISLAM to remain pure, ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws can never be amended ?

Because to amended ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws would be a blasphemy and a capital offence [in ISLAM].

Isn't that true ?

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

shockresist,

Look at the title of the thread.

The thread is about how 'a practising Muslim' is defined [by ISLAM].

Quote:

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

shockresist,

That is very magnanimous of you.

But how are practising moslems [guided by pure ISLAM] obligated to react, towards persons who reject ISLAM, and particularly ex-moslems ?

[pssssst! shockresist, i know that this is a difficult question to put to you, being a NONE-practising moslem Tongue

n.b. YOU HAVE CONFIRMED THIS, with your last reply. Correct ? ]

+++

Read what people who have known ISLAM intimately, think of ISLAM !

Ex-moslems!

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

I personally have never met a muslim who has converted out of islam.

But if I ever did I would sit with the individual and try to understand why he left, try to understand his situation, work out where the person went wrong etc etc.

If I try to help the individual back to islam and he dosent come back then I cant force him back.

Thats the choice he has made and one day his creator will be the one to judge him.

shockresist,

So you are stating, in this public forum, that as a moslem, you are prepared to ignore the instruction and command of Mohammed regarding apostates ?

Doesn't Mohammed's understanding of the pure practice of ISLAM, doens't this apply in the 21 st century ?

Is that what you are saying, shockresist ?

shockresist,

Would'nt your response [your tolerance of apostasy/apostates] be regarded as 'an innovation' of the practice of ISLAM and an attempt to change ISLAMIC law ?

OR,

Are you just practising taqiyya in this forum [with regard to your 'moslem' response, on the issue of moslem apostasy],

because this forum is frequented by many infidels ???

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #41 - Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:24am

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him

Firstly this is a weak hadith. Secondly, even if it is authentic, there is a widely held belief amongst scholars and jurists that this only applies to apostates who join the enemies of islam and declare war on muslims (and to be clear - thats literally, not figuratively).

As you well know Yadda, the quran trumps the hadeeth in terms of authority over islamic law. The quran has a fair bit to say about unbelievers and apostates, but nowhere does it say they must be put to death. In fact, most of what it says directly contradicts this so called hadith - not least of all the command that there be no compulsion in religion.

Quote:

"Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path. Give to the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment."

quran: 4:137-138

Clearly the only punishment in store for these disbelievers is in the afterlife. How could these apostates have the opportunity to repeatedly disbelieve then believe again - if they were supposed to be put to death each time they disbelieve?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #42 - Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:52am

gandalf again on a cherry-picking mission to sweep the nasty bits under the carpet as being 'weak', or 'reinterpreted' by scholars in order to escape moral censure by the Unbelievers.

And all the while gandalf knows that in Islam the sacred text are the literal Word of Allah, and are therefore not open to 'interpretation' and re-jigging for convenience sake.

Deceit, evasions, denials, 'reinterpretations', obfuscations, smoke-screens, lies, etc etc.

Remember when the Grand Mufti of Australia Sheik Hilaly used to say things that would cause an uproar in the media ... and then whole hosts of 'Muslim leaders' would come forward to say that Hilaly didn't represent them ... and didn't represent 'true' Islam?

Remember the laughs we used to get from that? Over and over again?

"Hey! The Grand Mufti doesn't represent MEEE! ~ and what he said isn't reeeeal Islam".

Yeah ... right.

gandalf is hopping around finding little bits here and there that he hopes will bury the Nasty Bits away from critical attention.

Gandalf the Emu .... peck... peck... peck... peck... all the Good Bits and then pile them on top of the Nasty Bits so they don't show.... 'Insha'Allah'... Grin

I don't know if you're a Muslim, gandalf, but if you are, how about inviting the women at your mosque to come out from the back and pray alongside you men?

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« Last Edit: Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:01am by Lord Herbert »

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Yadda

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Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #43 - Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him

Firstly this is a weak hadith. Secondly, even if it is authentic, there is a widely held belief amongst scholars and jurists that this only applies to apostates who join the enemies of islam and declare war on muslims (and to be clear - thats literally, not figuratively).

As you well know Yadda, the quran trumps the hadeeth in terms of authority over islamic law. The quran has a fair bit to say about unbelievers and apostates, but nowhere does it say they must be put to death.

In fact, most of what it says directly contradicts this so called hadith - not least of all the command that there be no compulsion in religion.

Quote:

"Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path. Give to the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment."

quran: 4:137-138

Clearly the only punishment in store for these disbelievers is in the afterlife. How could these apostates have the opportunity to repeatedly disbelieve then believe again - if they were supposed to be put to death each time they disbelieve?

gandalf,

Yes, i think that the Koran sets out Allah's intentions [AND COMMANDS], clearly enough.

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

gandalf,

When moslems fight against the disbelievers [i.e. because they are disbelievers, AS COMMANDED BY ALLAH, IN THE KORAN], won't the moslems actually kill many people, by fighting them ?

"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise."
Koran 8.067

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Posts: 21872
A cat with a view

Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Reply #44 - Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:02am

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him

Firstly this is a weak hadith. Secondly, even if it is authentic, there is a widely held belief amongst scholars and jurists that this only applies to apostates who join the enemies of islam and declare war on muslims (and to be clear - thats literally, not figuratively).

As you well know Yadda, the quran trumps the hadeeth in terms of authority over islamic law. The quran has a fair bit to say about unbelievers and apostates, but nowhere does it say they must be put to death.

In fact, most of what it says directly contradicts this so called hadith - not least of all the command that there be no compulsion in religion.

Quote:

"Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path. Give to the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment."

quran: 4:137-138

Clearly the only punishment in store for these disbelievers is in the afterlife. How could these apostates have the opportunity to repeatedly disbelieve then believe again - if they were supposed to be put to death each time they disbelieve?

gandalf,

Yes, i think that the Koran sets out Allah's intentions [AND COMMANDS], clearly enough.

gandalf,

When moslems fight against the disbelievers [i.e. because they are disbelievers, AS COMMANDED BY ALLAH, IN THE KORAN], won't the moslems actually kill many people, by fighting them ?

gandalf,

i.e.
When moslems abandon ISLAM, don't they become DISBELIEVERS [as well as apostates] ???

Doesn't Allah [in the authoritative Koran] command moslems to fight against the DISBELIEVERS - and either kill them, or 'turn them' from their unbelief ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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