polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 12:17am:



Let me take a stab at answering your query, gandalf.


FD [like many other people], can see the blind, inherent, blatant dishonesty of moslems, and that blatant dishonesty irritates a person like FD.i Quote:

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 10:17am:


Being petty is not a petty matter for you FD - I understand that only too well.

If you approached these discussions in good faith it would be a completely different matter. But you don't - you only ever approach these discussions in an accusative tone, posing questions with only one purpose in mind - to bait. Then you act all high and mighty when muslims understandably respond defensively. You then triumphantly collect all these reactions to your baiting, compile them into a new thread (or defamatory wiki article) - simply to say "see? Look how unreasonable these muslims are!"

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 10:17am:


Cute use of the word "whether" - as if there was ever any question in your mind 

Undeniably there are some serious issues surrounding islam and its role in the political and social sphere around the world. But there's a way to approach these issues if you are trully interested in constructive discussion. Your way is anything but constructive. By deliberately baiting for emotional responses, you are merely perpetuating the underlying problems beneath these important issues.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 12:41pm:


None of the past responses from muslims you have linked to me before shows evidence of muslims lying.

But just for an interesting exercise, would you mind showing me an example of a muslim you have "spoken to" (I use the term loosely) who has "told lie after lie after lie"? If its that common, surely you'll have no problem showing me.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 12:41pm:


You have demonstrated perfectly that you have no interest whatsoever in the truth. If you were, you would do some research for yourself into these topics, instead of demanding muslims provide the answers you wish to hear. Every defamatory claim you come up with, it always takes me 5 seconds to find an opposing view on google - mainstream view that is. Not necessarily the "right" view, but a view that is at least as legitimate, and worth the same weight as your cherry picked perspectives. And every time I do that I think to myself "why on earth couldn't he have found this for himself?" After all, being genuinely interested in the truth involves acknowledging and understanding all the different perspectives, and weighing them up together - not cherry picking the views you want to hear and flatly refusing to acknowledge opposing views exist.

Freediver.

Its hard to believe you have spoken to muslims about these so called easy topics you claim to have.

No matter what answer they give you, you accuse the muslims of lying.So why keep repeating the questions when you think in your mind that there lying?I don't understand you at times.

You do ask very difficult questions and I guarantee many people wouldn't know how to answer your questions.

I myself haven't come across some of the stuff you post.

Mohameds military campaigns don't concern me and have no bearing of my life.They have no relevance in my life and its not something I wonder about everyday.

Whether Mohamed killed 700 people or killed nobody, I believe Mohamed is the final prophet and I believe in the creator who has sent him.

In saying that I believe that Mohamed is the last prophet, I still believe in prophet Jesus, moses, Abraham etc etc.

As the Koran says, if you truly Love God, then follow prophet Mohamed.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 1:16pm:


No. Thats absurd and I think deep down you must surely know it. People have different points of view. Not holding your particular point of view is not lying (cf your response to the 700 "POWs").

Why would muslims come on to this little forum with a deliberate agenda to deceive you? You're not Yadda FD, I had hoped you were better than that.

The words "liar" and "lies" are bandied around here far too often - by all sides. There is a lot of misinformation here, and it is perpetuated by all sides. But perpetuating a lie in ignorance is vastly different to actively "lying" or being "a liar". For that, you must knowingly express an untruth with the specific aim of deceiving others. I don't believe that happens here - there is no reason to suspect that it happen here.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 1:16pm:


Never - because "truth" is subjective - especially when we're talking about islam. *YOUR* version of islam is your truth, therefore the answers you want in your little interrogations cannot possibly be untrue in your mind. But its not my truth. Perhaps your approach is wrong - perhaps you should be looking for understanding and knowledge rather than "truth".

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 1:16pm:


I think the key point here is which issues you take an interest in. I think its fair to say its not issues that put islam in a positive light - would you agree? Also a cynic would say you are not really interested in those issues at all - in so far as you merely use these issues to validate already well established negative pre-conceptions about islam.

Worst of all is that you seem to have pre-conceptions about muslims themselves, who evidently have spent a lot of time (myself included) attempting to answer your questions in perfectly good faith. And what do we get in return? You compile all our responses to present a negative portrayal of islam, then plaster them up in wiki pages to emphasise the devious and dishonest nature of muslims, or new threads called "muslims want to silence and intimidate you" or something similar. Thats what really gets me FD - when I painstakingly and in good faith try to engage you in discussion - and you throw it back at me with mocking threads basically saying "isn't this lying muslim sneaky and deceiving?!" - which is all this thread is about.

True Colours wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 4:04pm:


Earth to TC: can you back this claim up, beyond claiming that the spat on Muhammed and mocked him? Is this what inspired Muhammed to torture a Jewish treasurer to get at the Jew gold?

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Sure, if you want. You could even insist we refrain from executing them and send them all back to the middle east.

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I did not accuse them of lying because they had different points of view. I accuse them of lying because of the absurd lengths they will go to in order to mislead people about Islam - methods that will work unless you are skeptical of everything a Muslim says. If a muslim says something that sounds like what you would like to hear about Islam, they are inevitably concealing some distasteful aspect of Islam. I started putting together that wiki when Muslims starting contradicting their own spin, then pretending it never happened. It got quite tedious to go back and prove that they had actually said what you thought they had said. It quickly ballooned from there as I realised the extent of the crap they had been spinning us.

Fore example, a Muslim who admitted that spousal rape is not a punishable offence in Islam spent about a year on here insisting that rape is illegal in Islam and pretending the only issue under discussion is rape in the context of sex that is not permitted. They deliberately steered the discussion away from those areas where they knew Islam does permit rape. It was the same with slavery. We even had a Muslim on here arguing that Islam would effectively ban slavery in the modern world because western armies don't take women onto the battlefield. Then after they conceded the points on rape, slavery etc, they went back to pretending they never said it. It was like you previously insisting that a Muslim could not possibly have said those things, except it was their own words they were denying. Whether this spin is deliberate or merely parroting spin they heard from someone else, you address it the same way.

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Apparently that is what they do. They would easily get away with the crap they spin in the pre-internet era. I can only assume that Muslims have a rich 1400 year history of spinning crap about Islam to non-Muslims (war is deception and all that) that worked very well, up till now. Every with the benefit of a search function it can be hard to pin a Muslim down to his own words.

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I think you are one of the biggest offenders there.

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It is not the ignorance that caught my attention. This forum is full of it. It was the skill with which they steered the discussion away from whatever it was they were trying to conceal. You cannot do that out of ignorance.

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I realise that you have a progressive interpretation of Islam. That is why my discussions with you focus on the reality of the example Muhammed set. You can believe Muhammed was a peace loving hippy all you want, but if you promote Islam and we end up with Shariah law, it is not going to be your concocted version we get. It will be the real version. We see this being played out in the world today. I think you and TC have recently admitted that you were ignorant of some of the more unpalatable aspects of Islam. Surely I have done you a service by bringing it to your attention, even if it did make the atmosphere a bit negative along the way.

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Of course. I don't give a stuff which direction you face when you pray. This is a politics forum. No amount of platitudes and "do the right thing" is going to make up for an ideology that still enslaves, rapes, kills and oppresses.

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You mean to find out to what extent those pre-conceptions of Islam are accurate?

FD, needless to say I think you are being extremely unfair on the arguments put forward by muslims - myself included.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 6:11pm:


I am familiar with this discussion, and it is simply untrue that falah did not attempt to address the marital rape issue. He argued at length that it is not permissable - despite his claim that it is not a punishable offense - using quotes from the quran to back his case.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 6:11pm:


And thats dishonest/deceitful because...?

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 6:11pm:


Yes I must be part of the great conspiracy 

I'm guessing that no muslim here has ever said something and then later denied having ever said it. Seem like a pretty unlikely charge.  We know you have a record of claiming what muslims say (camel urine claim) - that turns out to be a complete fabrication.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 6:11pm:


honestly - are you listening to yourself?

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 6:31pm:


I also claim they were not POWs. And neither of us has avoided the issue of how they were captured - you just choose to reject our explanation. Apparently you think that because they didn't kill any muslims, didn't in the end take up weapons against the muslims - that means they are not guilty of treachery. I am not avoiding the fact that the muslims besieged them, and that they surrendered unconditionally. But I reject the label "POW" for the same reason as the US government rejected the idea that US citizens that were captured while colluding with the taliban and/or Al Qaeda, were POWs. They were *arrested* - rather than "captured* - by their own government for betraying their country. In the case of the Banu Quraysa, their government was that led by Muhammad, and they had concluded a pact to not collude with Muhammad's enemies. They broke this agreement (law), and in response, Muhammad effectively issued an arrest warrant on them - to be judged and punished as traitors. That they laid down their arms and had their hands bound makes not one iota of difference to this reality.

Make of that what you will, but that is my honest opinion. Please give me the courtesy of accepting there is no dishonesty, no avoidance of any "inconvenient" facts, and no deceit on my part.

Not just 3 pretty faces.