Australian Politics Forum - Ramadan is Over Thank Christ

polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #15 - Aug 15^th, 2013 at 3:59pm

5 out of 54 muslim countries have capital punishment for blasphemy, and in your book that represents mainstream islam? Strange logic you have their baron - thats like saying hanging is "mainstream" in the US because 2 out of 50 states allow it.

Neither blasphemy or apostasy is a punishable offense in islamic law. That is my opinion, and I fully understand that many muslims will disagree with me. Not a majority, but many.

Also Saudi Arabia is under the thumb of Wahabists. Wahabism is not a mainstream sect in islam.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #16 - Aug 15^th, 2013 at 4:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

5 out of 54 muslim countries have capital punishment for blasphemy, and in your book that represents mainstream islam? Strange logic you have their baron - thats like saying hanging is "mainstream" in the US because 2 out of 50 states allow it.

Neither blasphemy or apostasy is a punishable offense in islamic law. That is my opinion, and I fully understand that many muslims will disagree with me. Not a majority, but many.

Also Saudi Arabia is under the thumb of Wahabists. Wahabism is not a mainstream sect in islam.

Let me guess which countries have the death penalty for blasphemy-
Saudi Arabia- chop your head off
Islamic republic of Iran- they hang you, Khomeni Fatwa on Salman came from the bearded supreme ruler
Pakistan- The land of the pure (99% muslim)
Yemen?
Mauritania?

Do you think jailing people for blasphemy is acceptable gandalf?

When did the christians/jews stop killing people for blasphemy?

One of the 5 pillars of Islam is Hajj, where do you go for that Gandalf is it the homeland of Islam Saudi Arabia?

If you dont agree with death for apostasy then surely you dont consider it blasphemy to sign this petition to outlaw the death penalty for apostasy-
Countries that have the death penalty for leaving Islam (apostasy)-
Iran- death penalty
Egypt-death
Pakistan- death
UAE- death
Somalia-death
Afghansitan-death
Saudi Arabia- death
Sudan (muslim)- death
Qatar-death
Yemen-death
Mauritania- death
Jordan- jail
Malaysia- jail
Morocco- jail
Algeria- jail
All of these countries are in violation of the Universal declaration of human rights article 18, all of them have Islam as the state religion.
www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/decriminalise-apostasy

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #17 - Aug 15^th, 2013 at 5:00pm You're not disproving any of my points Baron.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #18 - Aug 15^th, 2013 at 7:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 5:00pm:

You're not disproving any of my points Baron.

You offered your opinion on whether blasphemy or apostasy is punishable under Islamic law and you also said many muslims will disagree with you, you have also presented information from Ahmadi muslims in the past and they do not represent mainstream Islam they have been declared heretics by mainstream Islam.
Is the persecution of Ahmadi muslims by mainstream Islam evidence that Islam cannot reform?

The fact is only countries with Islam as a state religion execute people for blasphemy and apostasy in 2013.

Another fact is only countries with Islam as the state religion do not accept the Universal Declaration of Human Rights with many saying it violates Islamic law.

So what points were you trying to make?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #19 - Aug 15^th, 2013 at 9:07pm

Quote:

In fact the US has an excellent track record of this - mujahideen in Afghanistan, Zia ul-Haq in Pakistan, Kosovar terrorists etc etc.

Do you think the US was wrong to support the Afghans against the Russians?

Quote:

Yes please do explain the hypocrisy

You are a hypocrite for insisting that the standard set by modern countries reflects mainstream Islam when it suits your argument, and insisting it doesn't when it does not suit your arguments.

Quote:

What does that mean?

Abu for example appears to think that the death penalty for apostasy/blasphemy should apply to the "wrong type" of Muslims also. As you can imagine it was a bit hard to get him to elaborate on the details. I think the most he said was that the ones that kept their mouth shut would not be killed. So obviously those Muslims are going to oppose the punishment if they are likely to end up on the receiving end of it.

Quote:

Neither blasphemy or apostasy is a punishable offense in islamic law. That is my opinion, and I fully understand that many muslims will disagree with me. Not a majority, but many.

Do you understand why?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #20 - Aug 15^th, 2013 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Do you think the US was wrong to support the Afghans against the Russians?

All outside interference by foreign powers using impoverished countries as pawns in a game of global supremacy is wrong. Even so, it would have been slightly better if the US had a post-Soviet rebuilding plan for Afghanistan, instead of just abandoning her as soon as the Soviets left.

But I certainly think its wrong of the US to provide material support to barbaric islamists attempting to overthrow stable secular regimes - ignoring a long list of atrocities along the way, and propping up corrupt islamic regimes that have institutionalised slavery and forbid their women to drive - just so they can maintain a reliable military base in the region and have a secure supply of oil. Do you think thats wrong FD? Do you see yet that western interference isn't all nobility and abolishing slavery?

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

you are a hypocrite for insisting that the standard set by modern countries reflects mainstream Islam when it suits your argument, and insisting it doesn't when it does not suit your arguments.

Take a breath FD, and explain to me how its hypocritical to point out that 5 out of 54 muslim countries does not represent the mainstream of islam. I tend to ascribe mainstream islam to where muslims are in the majority. 49 out of 54 is a majority, therefore its mainstream. Can you give me some examples where I have "hypocritically" ascribed mainstream to a minority muslim view? Or is this simply where you have incorrectly assumed something is mainstream - like you did with the blasphemy=beheading view - where you ran away from my request to cite a single mainstream islamic body that holds that view?

Then perhaps you can explain how its not hypocritical to praise the inteference of western nations in the muslim world as forcing progressive things like ending slavery - while ignoring the interference of western nations that have promoted fundamentalism and extremism.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Do you understand why?

Ignorance, anger and confounding religion with geo-political contexts.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #21 - Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm

Quote:

All outside interference by foreign powers using impoverished countries as pawns in a game of global supremacy is wrong. Even so, it would have been slightly better if the US had a post-Soviet rebuilding plan for Afghanistan, instead of just abandoning her as soon as the Soviets left.

So they shouldn't have interfered, but they should have interfered more?

Quote:

But I certainly think its wrong of the US to provide material support to barbaric islamists attempting to overthrow stable secular regimes - ignoring a long list of atrocities along the way, and propping up corrupt islamic regimes that have institutionalised slavery and forbid their women to drive - just so they can maintain a reliable military base in the region and have a secure supply of oil. Do you think thats wrong FD? Do you see yet that western interference isn't all nobility and abolishing slavery?

Are you a fan of secularity?

Quote:

Take a breath FD, and explain to me how its hypocritical to point out that 5 out of 54 muslim countries does not represent the mainstream of islam.

It is if you pretend it says anything about Islamic law or mainstream Islam.

Quote:

I tend to ascribe mainstream islam to where muslims are in the majority. 49 out of 54 is a majority, therefore its mainstream.

Is that what defines Islam?

Quote:

Can you give me some examples where I have "hypocritically" ascribed mainstream to a minority muslim view?

Actually, most Muslims seem to think Islam is about the Koran.

Quote:

Or is this simply where you have incorrectly assumed something is mainstream - like you did with the blasphemy=beheading view - where you ran away from my request to cite a single mainstream islamic body that holds that view?

Earth to gandalf - my whole point was that they were refraining from commenting on this.

Quote:

Then perhaps you can explain how its not hypocritical to praise the inteference of western nations in the muslim world as forcing progressive things like ending slavery - while ignoring the interference of western nations that have promoted fundamentalism and extremism.

It is hypocritical to use it to define Islam when it suits you, then complain when people like Yadda do the same.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #22 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 1:54am

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

So they shouldn't have interfered, but they should have interfered more?

reading comprehension please FD.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

Are you a fan of secularity?

By and large yes. Thats not the point here though. The point is I oppose the US barging in to needlessly destroy stable governments that have created great prosperity - as was the case in Libya. And thats irrespective of whether its a secular or non-secular regime. Libya had the highest standard of living of any African nation, its literacy rates and education levels were world class - even by developed world standards. Now it is a poo hole, with terrorism, assassinations and arson a near daily occurrence. The US is attempting to facilitate the same deal in Syria - not as blatantly, but they are funding and now arming foreign salafist terrorists who routinely enter Alawite or christian villages and massacre the civilians - or at least drive them out. The Syrian people are now turning to the regime, and hailing them as saviours whenever they drive out the terrorists. And thats not a reflection on how virtuous the regime has been - they have been brutal too - but it just shows how terrible the so called "rebels" are. And here is the US (and her clients Qatar and Saudi Arabia) funding and now arming these scum.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

It is if you pretend it says anything about Islamic law or mainstream Islam.

If you are talking about the islamic doctrine, thats an easy one - there is no proscribed punishment for blasphemy - let alone beheading. However in this case I am defining "mainstream islam" as the muslims who best represent islam. 5 out of 54 countries does not reflect the muslims that represent mainstream islam.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

Earth to gandalf - my whole point was that they were refraining from commenting on this.

Refraining? Rubbish. Based on what? Nothing.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

It is hypocritical to use it to define Islam when it suits you, then complain when people like Yadda do the same.

You missed the question, but anyway...

I have only ever referenced mainstream muslim leaders and organisations to make my points about islam's rejection of terrorism and intolerance. Yadda routinely cites universally rejected clowns like Amjen Choudary and images of fringe protests. Recently I adopted what is seemingly a non-mainstream view regarding Quranic verse 4:34 (alleged wife beating), but I believe I openly acknowledged that it was non-mainstream.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Crocodile Hunter: Origins Posts: 24744 Rockhampton Gender:	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #23 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 3:29am If I starved myself from sun up to sundown, I would probably be in a pissed off mood too.
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freediver

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #24 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 8:26am

Quote:

By and large yes. Thats not the point here though. The point is I oppose the US barging in to needlessly destroy stable governments that have created great prosperity - as was the case in Libya. And thats irrespective of whether its a secular or non-secular regime.

And how do you feel about dictatorship?

Quote:

Refraining? Rubbish. Based on what? Nothing.

Exactly. If you want I can post a link to them refraining.

Quote:

I have only ever referenced mainstream muslim leaders and organisations to make my points about islam's rejection of terrorism and intolerance. Yadda routinely cites universally rejected clowns like Amjen Choudary

Except it is not quite universal, is it? If I was Gandalf I would spend the next page belabouring this point and how I proved you wrong and pretending it was the only issue under discussion.

Quote:

Recently I adopted what is seemingly a non-mainstream view regarding Quranic verse 4:34 (alleged wife beating), but I believe I openly acknowledged that it was non-mainstream.

I would go further and say it fails the common sense test, in terms of your interpretation of the text. But I still think it is great that you insist on thinking for yourself.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #25 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 9:51am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 1:54am:

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

It is hypocritical to use it to define Islam when it suits you, then complain when people like Yadda do the same.

I have only ever referenced mainstream muslim leaders and organisations to make my points about

islam's rejection of terrorism and intolerance....

In this forum, gandalf asserts that persons like himself, promote the views of 'mainstream' ISLAM and the views of 'mainstream' moslems - which is a 'rejection of terrorism and intolerance'
.

And that REAL ISLAM has no association with extremism or acts of terrorism.

gandalf wants OzPol forum members to understand, that 'mainstream' moslems [i.e. the majority of moslems] are in reality, all 'moderate' [i.e. SECULAR] moslems.

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED - ISLAM'S PROPHET AND ARGUABLY, THE AUTHOR OF ALL OF ISLAM'S THEOLOGY

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED - ISLAM'S PROPHET AND ARGUABLY, THE AUTHOR OF ALL OF ISLAM'S THEOLOGY

Quote:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

hadith/bukhari/001.002.025

+++

QUESTION;
Relative to ISLAM, who is Mohammed ?

What has Mohammed to do with mainstream ISLAM ?

QUESTION;
Relative to ISLAM, who is Allah ?

What has Allah to do with mainstream ISLAM ?

QUESTION;
Relative to ISLAM, what are holy ISLAMIC texts ?

What have holy ISLAMIC texts to do with mainstream ISLAM ?

ANSWER;
Moslems like gandalf, come to this forum, and they assert that only 'mainstream' moslems, like themselves, know what real ISLAM is [....because moslems, like themselves, are the majority, among the moslems].

To imagine that Mohammed, Allah, and holy ISLAMIC texts, can have any influence upon how mainstream moslems follow their faith is an aberrant thought - it is a thought coming from persons who know nothing, about the love of 'secularity', among 'mainstream' moslems.

!!!!! Grin

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 1:54am:

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

Are you a fan of secularity?

By and large yes.....

gandalf asserts;
That as moslem, he can be a moslem AND, that he can also be a fan of secularism [or 'secularity']. Shocked

I assert that gandalf is deluding [deceiving] himself.

Dictionary;
secular = =
1 not religious, sacred, or spiritual.
2 not subject to or bound by religious rule.

+++

SOME REALITY;

"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

Dictionary;
ummah = = the whole community of Muslims bound together by ties of religion.

Dictionary;
Islam = = the religion of the Muslims, a monotheistic faith regarded as revealed through Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah.

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Dictionary;
Koran = = the Islamic sacred book, believed to be the word of God as dictated to Muhammad and written down in Arabic.

In having you to examine those dictionary definitions [immediately above] i want you to understand that the word 'moslem' does not exist, in isolation.

The word 'moslem' is NOT undefined.

The word 'moslem' has a meaning, which is defined by ISLAM.

We should understand, that a person who self declares as a moslem, is "a follower of Islam".

And in that understanding we need to acknowledge, with intellectual maturity, just what the implications of that truth really, really, are.

As far ISLAM and [the non-'secular'] moslems are concerned, being a moslem, is like being pregnant, YOU EITHER ARE A MOSLEM, OR, YOU ARE NOT, A MOSLEM!

Further, ISLAMIC law makes it clear that those who oppose ANY part of the tenets and laws of ISLAM - ARE NOT MOSLEMS.

+++

The roots of Islamism

".....Islamists believe in the re-ordering of society to secure total submission to a narrow, puritan and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam......

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #26 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:21am

Many moslems [like gandalf], within this forum, will assert that they are moslems.

But, at the very same time, some will assert that they are also [essentially] secularists too [i.e. that they do 'support' secularism]. Shocked

Q.
What is the medical [psycho] term for people who believe that they 'embody' more than one personality at the same time ???

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 1:54am:

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

Are you a fan of secularity?

By and large yes.....

Dictionary;
secular = =
1 not religious, sacred, or spiritual.
2 not subject to or bound by religious rule.

+++

SOME REALITY;

"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

Dictionary;
ummah = = the whole community of Muslims bound together by ties of religion.

Dictionary;
Islam = = the religion of the Muslims, a monotheistic faith regarded as revealed through Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah.

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Dictionary;
Koran = = the Islamic sacred book, believed to be the word of God as dictated to Muhammad and written down in Arabic.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95430 Gender:	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #27 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:28am Q. What is the medical term for someone who doesn’t accept the existence of differing points of view? A. Oppositional Defiance Disorder with autistic features. You’ll find it in the DSM, Y.
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Yadda

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #28 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:32am

Yadda wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:21am:

Q.
What is the medical [psycho] term for people who believe that they 'embody' more than one personality at the same time ???

I was thinking of schizophrenia.

Dictionary;
schizophrenia = = a long-term mental disorder of a type involving a breakdown in the relation between thought, emotion, and behaviour, leading to faulty perception, inappropriate actions and feelings, and withdrawal from reality into fantasy and delusion.

But this may also apply, to the 'moslem' psyche;

Quote:

Cognitive dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term to define the condition that results whenever an individual attempts to hold two incompatible, if not contradictory, thoughts at the same time even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Dictionary;
cognitive dissonance = = the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes.

Quote:

The Reality of Cognitive Dissonance among Muslim Apologists
By Syed M. Islam
".....Having mingled with several Islamists and seeking to learn from their arguments with empathy and interpersonal respect, it is my opinion that, among many of them, cognitive dissonance is a reverberating reality. My opinion is based upon first-hand evidence gathered over two years. The evidence confirms a dangerous and disturbing dig of denial among many Muslim apologists."

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/MunirIslam40206.htm

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #29 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:39am

Karnal wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:28am:

Q. What is the medical term for someone who doesn’t accept the existence of differing points of view?

A. Oppositional Defiance Disorder with autistic features.

You’ll find it in the DSM, Y.

K,

I accept another persons right to hold and express views [which are not my own].

I do not accept that i have the right to end the life of persons who do not believe what i believe.

Moslems do believe that.

ISLAMIC texts and theology, teaches moslems, that belief.

+++

MURDERING INFIDELS WHO RESIST THE MOSLEMS, INFIDELS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT MOSLEMS BELIEVE, IS TOTALLY RIGHTEOUS AND IS TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.
......Allah has said so;

Koran 2.98
Koran 47:8-11
Koran 4.74-76

The content of those three Koran verse groups, together, form a 'virtuous circle'.

Each verse group firstly confirms and then reinforces the ISLAMIC 'religious' paradigm, that;
1/ unbelief [in man] is a serious 'religious' crime, and that,
2/ the 'criminals' [i.e. the 'unbelievers'] deserve every punishment they get, and the 'criminals' are outside of the protection of law, and that,
3/ good moslems have an obligation to, ....'fight in the cause of Allah' , and all good moslems are 'rightly guided' and are justified in their 'crime fighting'.

Those arguments [above] are 'logically' demonstrated...

1/ "...Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith." [i.e. 'Unbelief' [in man] is a crime.].
Koran 2.98
[ - - The enemy of moslems is identified. All of 'unbelieving' mankind, are the declared enemy of moslems.]

2/ "...those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47:8-11
[ - - Here, it is clearly stated to every good moslem, that moslem enmity, violence, and warfare, against 'those who reject Faith', is morally justified, and 'lawful'. /sarc off]

3/ "...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76
[ - - Those who reject 'Faith' are ipso facto, 'rightly' deemed, by ISLAM and by Allah, as being innately evil. Therefore those who reject 'Faith', are described as 'oppressors', and are the rightful targets of moslem enmity, violence, and warfare.
...'those who reject Faith' are described [Koran 4.74-76], as 'oppressors' and as, 'the friends of Satan'.]

Once again, the 'theology' which ISLAM inculcates into the psyche of all moslems, is this;...

1/ 'Unbelief' [in man] is a crime.
2/ The 'criminals' have no 'lawful' protection whatsoever.
3/ The crime of 'unbelief' >> must << be punished by good moslems, and the punishment of 'unbelief' is morally justified, because, the 'unbelievers' are in league with evil forces, and they are the oppressors of the people [stated in Koran 4.74-76].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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