Australian Politics Forum - Ramadan is Over Thank Christ

Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #30 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 4:00pm Schizophrenia, cognitive dissonance, manic depressive (sorry that's not politically correct) bipolar, the original Mo man had the lot. Not to mention all the wife beating he had to do.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #31 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 4:08pm

369freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

And how do you feel about dictatorship?

I support democracy FD, I've made that abundantly clear before. Its not the point though. You have a knack of responding to my points with something that is completely irrelevant. For example, I opposed Saddam, but I opposed the invasion even more - because I knew that it would release a poo storm that would be far far worse than the sum total of Saddam's attrocities. And I was right - but even I underestimated the full scale of the horrors unleashed by the invasion. I also wasn't a great fan of Gaddaffi's human rights record, but I opposed the NATO intervention even more - because once again I knew it would release a poo storm - which it has - and its only started. Ditto with Assad and arming Al-Nusra. To bring this back to your question - while I support democracy, I don't support installing one when it will mean far greater turmoil and suffering than not having a democracy.

I also like to point out the irony that its me - a muslim - not the resident islamophobes who is lanbasting the west for empowering islamic terrorists against non-islamic regime. I enjoy pointing this out because I know you in particular are a fanatical supporter of US cultural imperialism, and seem to support its implementation wherever it happens in the third world. Its amusing because when this involves promoting islamists and their terrorism, its interestingly juxtaposed with your clear anti-islam prejudice. On any other day you would be jumping at the opportunity to point out that any sort of empowering of islamists is the very antithesis of the freedom and democracy you think the US is all about promoting. But you have been strangely quiet on this issue when its pointed out that its the US that have been responsible for this.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Exactly. If you want I can post a link to them refraining.

That should be interesting. Are you going to quote people not saying anything? Not sure how that works.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #32 - Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:21pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 10:28am:

Q. What is the medical term for someone who doesn’t accept the existence of differing points of view?

A. Oppositional Defiance Disorder with autistic features.

You’ll find it in the DSM, Y.

K,

I accept another persons right to hold and express views [which are not my own].

I do not accept that i have the right to end the life of persons who do not believe what i believe.

Moslems do believe that.

ISLAMIC texts and theology, teaches moslems, that belief.

+++

MURDERING INFIDELS WHO RESIST THE MOSLEMS, INFIDELS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT MOSLEMS BELIEVE, IS TOTALLY RIGHTEOUS AND IS TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.
......Allah has said so;

Koran 2.98
Koran 47:8-11
Koran 4.74-76

The content of those three Koran verse groups, together, form a 'virtuous circle'.

Each verse group firstly confirms and then reinforces the ISLAMIC 'religious' paradigm, that;
1/ unbelief [in man] is a serious 'religious' crime, and that,
2/ the 'criminals' [i.e. the 'unbelievers'] deserve every punishment they get, and the 'criminals' are outside of the protection of law, and that,
3/ good moslems have an obligation to, ....'fight in the cause of Allah' , and all good moslems are 'rightly guided' and are justified in their 'crime fighting'.

Those arguments [above] are 'logically' demonstrated...

1/ "...Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith." [i.e. 'Unbelief' [in man] is a crime.].
Koran 2.98
[ - - The enemy of moslems is identified. All of 'unbelieving' mankind, are the declared enemy of moslems.]

2/ "...those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47:8-11
[ - - Here, it is clearly stated to every good moslem, that moslem enmity, violence, and warfare, against 'those who reject Faith', is morally justified, and 'lawful'. /sarc off]

3/ "...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76
[ - - Those who reject 'Faith' are ipso facto, 'rightly' deemed, by ISLAM and by Allah, as being innately evil. Therefore those who reject 'Faith', are described as 'oppressors', and are the rightful targets of moslem enmity, violence, and warfare.
...'those who reject Faith' are described [Koran 4.74-76], as 'oppressors' and as, 'the friends of Satan'.]

Once again, the 'theology' which ISLAM inculcates into the psyche of all moslems, is this;...

1/ 'Unbelief' [in man] is a crime.
2/ The 'criminals' have no 'lawful' protection whatsoever.
3/ The crime of 'unbelief' >> must << be punished by good moslems, and the punishment of 'unbelief' is morally justified, because, the 'unbelievers' are in league with evil forces, and they are the oppressors of the people [stated in Koran 4.74-76].

Gandalf told you what his point of view is, Y. You don’t accept it.

It obviously threatens you in some way.

Demokracy, innit. Karmic Khristian style.

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freediver

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #33 - Aug 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm

Quote:

I support democracy FD, I've made that abundantly clear before.

I just thought it was odd that you would use the word "secular" to describe these dictatorships. It's like describing a murderer as an animal lover.

Quote:

Its not the point though. You have a knack of responding to my points with something that is completely irrelevant. For example, I opposed Saddam, but I opposed the invasion even more - because I knew that it would release a poo storm that would be far far worse than the sum total of Saddam's attrocities.

Including the war with Iran and the chemical weapons? Or is that the west's fault too?

Quote:

I also wasn't a great fan of Gaddaffi's human rights record, but I opposed the NATO intervention even more - because once again I knew it would release a poo storm - which it has - and its only started.

Are you suggesting NATO started the poo storm and it would not have happened if they had stayed out?

Quote:

I also like to point out the irony that its me - a muslim - not the resident islamophobes who is lanbasting the west for empowering islamic terrorists against non-islamic regime.

I thought it was strange for you to support secularity.

Quote:

I enjoy pointing this out because I know you in particular are a fanatical supporter of US cultural imperialism, and seem to support its implementation wherever it happens in the third world.

You sure about that? Have you actually read my posts on the matter?

Quote:

Its amusing because when this involves promoting islamists and their terrorism, its interestingly juxtaposed with your clear anti-islam prejudice.

I keep forgetting Muslims' knack for pretending these conflicts are Muslims on one side and coalitions of various non-Muslims on the other.

Quote:

That should be interesting. Are you going to quote people not saying anything? Not sure how that works.

Well done Gandalf. I think you finally figured it out.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #34 - Aug 17^th, 2013 at 6:11pm

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

I just thought it was odd that you would use the word "secular" to describe these dictatorships. It's like describing a murderer as an animal lover.

What??

Secular = loving free democracy does it FD? Good one.

Saddam, Assad, Gaddaffi, Mubarak - all examples of secular dictators. Please look them up.

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Including the war with Iran and the chemical weapons? Or is that the west's fault too?

Now now, don't be making strawmen again.

Saddam probably killed a comparable number of people to the number killed a a result of the US invasion - although you will need to draw the long bow of blaming the horrors of the Iran-Iraq war solely on Saddam.

But really, its not a simple case of counting the death toll to measure the damage done. Several million Iraqis have fled the country - which includes a very large section of the intelligentsia. Thats a huge brain-drain on a country attempting to rebuild. This may never be recovered. There's also the infrastructure damage and neglect - caused both by the US's de-baathification policy, that removed just about all of the bureacracy, as well as state-employed workers that maintained the infrastructure (who had the expertise), and the US's spectacular failure at rebuilding the country's infrastructure with their own (very corrupt) US-based contractors. Then there's the crippling political paralysis that has contributed to the continued instability and violence.

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Are you suggesting NATO started the poo storm and it would not have happened if they had stayed out?

Libya? The rebellion was not started by NATO, but they fueled a fire that was either about to die a natural death, or could have been extinguished without the instability and bloodbath that comes with regime change. Gaddafi was on the verge of defeating the rebellion when Britain and France appealed to the UN for NATO to set up a no-fly zone to protect civilians. The UN said fine, good idea - please go and protect the civilians. But NATO didn't set up a no-fly zone, they used their air power to provide direct tactical support for rebel offensives. Not only that, France dropped in military supplies in direct contravention to the UN resolution, and special forces from the US and Qatar were secretly inserted into the rebel ranks to coordinate the final rebel offensive. The US also deployed drones to bomb government positions. Long story short, NATO blatantly violated the resolution that was designed only to set up a "safe zone" for civilians in rebel-held territory, and prevent government attacks into those regions. Russia especially were outraged at this, which is the reason why they have opposed US-led proposals for any intervention in Syria at every step.

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

I keep forgetting Muslims' knack for pretending these conflicts are Muslims on one side and coalitions of various non-Muslims on the other

I'm not. Al Nusra and other salafist fanatics need to be opposed precisely because they are the enemy of muslims. The only pretending going on here is by you - pretending that the US is not the hypocritical one supporting intolerant and violent salafists - while preaching democracy and freedom.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #35 - Aug 17^th, 2013 at 7:57pm

Quote:

Secular = loving free democracy does it FD? Good one.

That is not what I said. I even included an example in the hope it might help you understand the point.

Quote:

But really, its not a simple case of counting the death toll to measure the damage done.

It's a good place to start. I notice you have already started to shift the blame away from Saddam wherever you can.

Quote:

Libya? The rebellion was not started by NATO, but they fueled a fire that was either about to die a natural death, or could have been extinguished without the instability and bloodbath that comes with regime change.

You sure about that?

Quote:

But NATO didn't set up a no-fly zone, they used their air power to provide direct tactical support for rebel offensives.

As opposed to what? Dropping bombs on the civilian areas they were supposed to protect every time Gaddafi's forces went in for a slaughter? Or do you somehow imagine Gaddafi's forces would have driven along the highway on the way there with flags to let the foreign airforce identify them?

Quote:

I'm not. Al Nusra and other salafist fanatics need to be opposed precisely because they are the enemy of muslims.

You say you are not, yet you finish the sentence by doing exactly that. Abu played the same trick. Whenever Muslims were killing Muslims, he would go to great lengths toe xplain how one of the sides were not Muslims and it was all America's fault.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #36 - Aug 17^th, 2013 at 8:44pm

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 7:57pm:

That is not what I said. I even included an example in the hope it might help you understand the point.

Sorry, I must be still missing it. I'll just clarify my position (again), and hopefully it will answer whatever you want answered:
- I support secularism
- I support democracy
- I oppose dictatorships

Opposing dictatorships means all dictatorships - whether they be secular or religious. Saying I support secularism doesn't mean I support secular dictators - Clear?

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 7:57pm:

As opposed to what? Dropping bombs on the civilian areas they were supposed to protect every time Gaddafi's forces went in for a slaughter? Or do you somehow imagine Gaddafi's forces would have driven along the highway on the way there with flags to let the foreign airforce identify them?

The threat Gadaffi posed to civilians ended the minute NATO destroyed his offensive on Benghazi. They only needed to maintain the safe zone they had established and forced the two sides to the negotiating table. Instead they facilitated the rebels push westward - in direct violation of the terms of the UN resolution.

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 7:57pm:

You say you are not, yet you finish the sentence by doing exactly that. fault

Excuse me? Explain to me again what I am pretending? My last sentence states the fact disputed by no one - that the US is supporting Al Nusra in Syria. Are you going to tell me they are not?

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 7:57pm:

Whenever Muslims were killing Muslims, he would go to great lengths toe xplain how one of the sides were not Muslims and it was all America's fault.

I'm not saying that - both sides are muslims. And I never said it was America's fault that this was happening - the salafists are being trained and sent by other muslim countries. America is nonetheless guilty of hypocrisy by supporting the salafist-dominated FSA.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #37 - Aug 17^th, 2013 at 10:21pm

Quote:

The threat Gadaffi posed to civilians ended the minute NATO destroyed his offensive on Benghazi. They only needed to maintain the safe zone they had established and forced the two sides to the negotiating table. Instead they facilitated the rebels push westward - in direct violation of the terms of the UN resolution.

That doesn't make sense Gandalf. If he posed no threat, the rebels would have easily won. If you can take on the rebels, it is easy enough to slaughter civilians.

Quote:

I'm not saying that - both sides are muslims.

So Muslims are the enemy of all Muslims?

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #38 - Aug 17^th, 2013 at 10:23pm polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 16^th, 2013 at 4:08pm: I also like to point out the irony that its me - a muslim - not the resident islamophobes who is lanbasting the west for empowering islamic terrorists against non-islamic regime. For example?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #39 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 2:32am

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 10:21pm:

If he posed no threat, the rebels would have easily won. If you can take on the rebels, it is easy enough to slaughter civilians.

There is no evidence Gaddafi was slaughtering civilians. The only civilians under threat during the rebellion were those that were potentially going to be in the crossfire when they found themselves on the front line. It was also reasonable to assume civilians in the rebel strongholds of Benghazi and Misrata were at risk. That was the whole point of the no-fly zone - to stop Gaddafi's advance into tthese strongholds, to protect the civilians there from reprisals. They did that easily - but then turned to offensive operaitons in close coordination with the rebel forces. And in doing so, directly violated the terms of the UN resolution authorizing the no-fly zone.

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 10:21pm:

So Muslims are the enemy of all Muslims?

I was talking about Syria.

Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 10:23pm:

For example?

Al Nusra in Syria. Before that, islamists in Libya - who returned the favour a year later by assassinating the US ambassador in Benghazi. Another crucial empowering of islamists by the US was the support it provided to Zia ul-Haq in Pakistan - who was the one who turned Pakistan from a secular country, to a religious state - and empowered militants along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. And we all know what happened with that.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48844 At my desk.	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #40 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 8:51am So Islamists are the enemy of all Muslims? Are you the Muslim equivalent of the anti-Zionist Jews?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #41 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 4:47pm Depends what you mean by "islamist". All I'm saying is that the salafists who are terrorising Syrian civilians are the enemy of islam. I wasn't trying to make a universal statement.
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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #42 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 10:54pm polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 4:47pm: Depends what you mean by "islamist". All I'm saying is that the salafists who are terrorising Syrian civilians are the enemy of islam. I wasn't trying to make a universal statement. Which muslim sect is considered, in your opinion, the "saviour of islam".
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ
Reply #43 - Aug 19^th, 2013 at 1:28am

the phrase 'saviour of islam' makes no sense.

Suffice to say, any islamic "sect" that considers it a proper duty of a muslim to wage war against other muslims, slaughtering villagers and having no worldly concerns other than to ensure they die violently fighting the infidel - is not the "rightly guided" sect as far as true islam is concerned.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48844 At my desk.	Re: Ramadan is Over Thank Christ Reply #44 - Aug 19^th, 2013 at 8:40am So they wage war against other Muslims but only die when they fight the infidel?
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