Australian Politics Forum - Why would you NOT use notes??

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Online OzPolitic Posts: 40774 Gender:	Re: Why would you NOT use notes?? Reply #45 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 4:08pm cods wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:58am: maybe because HE SIGNED NOT TO USE NOTES THATS WHY bump ie, rudd cheated .
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #46 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 4:31pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 3:35pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 1:27pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q71/s720x720/1097982_4655...

What is Abbott using here?

That's it - his a cheat as well!

its like an exam. you are allowed to MAKE notes during it, but not allowed to bring them in with you.

RUBBISH !

( ... where did you pull THAT from)

it was part of the AGREED RULES to the debate!

NO
It WASN'T

Speech pointer notes are neither a "document" nor "other props"

( ... at least, this was the tacit ruling on both Rudd's AND Abbott's notes - by the adjudicator - from the beginning)

But BACK to my point - WHO declared debates between political leaders are run on
"like an exam"
RULES

now we have ROGUE-RULES BUZZ!!!

apparently a written and agreed to rule not to bring notes doesn't mean that at all.

ROGUE-RULES BUZZZ!!!!

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Kat

Gold Member

Offline

Socialism IS the answer.

Posts: 17709
Everywhere and no-where
Gender: female

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #47 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 7:26pm

Verge wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 3:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q71/s720x720/1097982_4655...

What is Abbott using here?

That's it - his a cheat as well!

its like an exam. you are allowed to MAKE notes during it, but not allowed to bring them in with you.

You obviously never did a business degree, I had plenty of exams where we were allowed to take in textbooks with us. It was quite common. The reality was if you relied on the text book getting you through and not the preparation and study you wouldnt pass it any way as the use of the texts was merely for fact checking (eg as stated in the accounts there is a clear breach of AASB XXXX in the notes to accounts as they have elected to prepare their accounts net basis when they have included some items as a Gross. You had to know the relevant standard breach before you could look up the number.)

I guess the "notes contraversary" has prompted one thought bubble, that the pollies should only be allowed to refer to a 1 or 2 page sheet as prepared by someone like Treasury that has clear figures on things like debt, deficit, revenue, GDP, and a combination of the like. It should also include certain costings on things and cross checking.

If either man uses a figure different to the ones produced has their speech cut short.

For example if Abbott made a claim that debt is larger than Treasury has confirmed what it is. Mic cut off. If Rudd claims there is a 70 Billion black hole and Treasury has confirmed its half that. Cut off.

Make there be some punishment for speaking untruths.

Good idea.

Abbott wouldn't get to say a word.

Back to top

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #48 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 7:28pm

Kat wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

Verge wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 3:52pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q71/s720x720/1097982_4655...

What is Abbott using here?

That's it - his a cheat as well!

its like an exam. you are allowed to MAKE notes during it, but not allowed to bring them in with you.

You obviously never did a business degree, I had plenty of exams where we were allowed to take in textbooks with us. It was quite common. The reality was if you relied on the text book getting you through and not the preparation and study you wouldnt pass it any way as the use of the texts was merely for fact checking (eg as stated in the accounts there is a clear breach of AASB XXXX in the notes to accounts as they have elected to prepare their accounts net basis when they have included some items as a Gross. You had to know the relevant standard breach before you could look up the number.)

I guess the "notes contraversary" has prompted one thought bubble, that the pollies should only be allowed to refer to a 1 or 2 page sheet as prepared by someone like Treasury that has clear figures on things like debt, deficit, revenue, GDP, and a combination of the like. It should also include certain costings on things and cross checking.

If either man uses a figure different to the ones produced has their speech cut short.

For example if Abbott made a claim that debt is larger than Treasury has confirmed what it is. Mic cut off. If Rudd claims there is a 70 Billion black hole and Treasury has confirmed its half that. Cut off.

Make there be some punishment for speaking untruths.

Good idea.

Abbott wouldn't get to say a word.

the point has always been - exam metaphpr aside - that the rules said no notes and he took in notes. he cheated.

the unbelievable thing is that there is even debate on the matter after Rudd himself admitted it.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Why would you NOT use notes?? Reply #49 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 7:31pm Wigley0 wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:47am: Everyone is having cracks at Rudd for using notes. "He cheated!" "He couldn't do it without notes!" "Abbott wins because Rudd used notes!" because Labor agreed not to!!!! if you wanted to use notes - then don't put it in the agreement
Back to top	Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number IP Logged

RightSadFred

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 2220
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #50 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:03pm

longweekend58

So you think its ok for an MP to be bad at publicly explaining policy and issues ?

You must of thought Gillard was doing an OK job.

Sorry their job involves public speaking, if I get a job as a cycle courier then you also need to get really good at bike riding.

Its a skill they should learn, they all get coaching for such, not sure what the deal is with Rudd.

Back to top

IP Logged

RightSadFred Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2220 Gender:	Re: Why would you NOT use notes?? Reply #51 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:06pm Verge I use to dread open book exams as it gives them far greater scope to make the questions harder. Philosophically I did not mind as in a work situation you often need to hit the books for tricky situations.
Back to top	IP Logged

#

Gold Member

Offline

A fool is certain: an
ignorant fool, absolutely
so

Posts: 2603

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #52 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:08pm

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/08/12/07/14/rudd-cheated-in-leaders-deb...
Quote:

The Nine Network reported that Tony Abbott used notes in his debate against Julia Gillard in the last federal election campaign - when the debate rules were the same as on Sunday.

The Nine TV report showed Abbott, trying to capitalise on Rudd's mistake. If he's done the same himself, what does that say about Abbott? That he's arrogant enough to think nobody will remember?

One other thing that occurs to me is that the Right shows up as far more anal-retentive than the Left. At the time of Abbott's mistake, evidently nobody on the Left cared to comment - or even noticed.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Why would you NOT use notes?? Reply #53 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:12pm
Back to top	IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #54 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:17pm

RightSadFred wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

longweekend58

So you think its ok for an MP to be bad at publicly explaining policy and issues ?

You must of thought Gillard was doing an OK job.

Sorry their job involves public speaking, if I get a job as a cycle courier then you also need to get really good at bike riding.

Its a skill they should learn, they all get coaching for such, not sure what the deal is with Rudd.

there is a difference between being able to make your case in public and brilliant oratory. you don't have to be an awesome orator - just a competent speaker in public. The vast majority of speakers use notes. the few that don't are either wafflers or truly brilliant speakers.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #55 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:18pm

# wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:08pm:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/08/12/07/14/rudd-cheated-in-leaders-deb...
Quote:

The Nine Network reported that Tony Abbott used notes in his debate against Julia Gillard in the last federal election campaign - when the debate rules were the same as on Sunday.

The Nine TV report showed Abbott, trying to capitalise on Rudd's mistake. If he's done the same himself, what does that say about Abbott? That he's arrogant enough to think nobody will remember?

One other thing that occurs to me is that the Right shows up as far more anal-retentive than the Left. At the time of Abbott's mistake, evidently nobody on the Left cared to comment - or even noticed.

he didn't take notes in. he used a pen an paper and MADE NOTES at the lectern

seriously, get a grip.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist

Gold Member

Online

OzPolitic

Posts: 40774
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #56 - Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:30pm

RightSadFred wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:06pm:

Verge

I use to dread open book exams as it gives them far greater scope to make the questions harder.

Philosophically I did not mind as in a work situation you often need to hit the books for tricky situations.

yes, open book exams hard.

I think this puts another smear on rudds character.
Cheating

Back to top

Modern Classic Right Wing

IP Logged

matty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11055
East Sydney
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #57 - Aug 13^th, 2013 at 2:55am

Karnal wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

matty wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

RightSadFred wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 12:09pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:56am:

It's probably about ratings, Wigley. Notes make people turn the channel.

Besides, a candidate for PM should have his arguments down pat by now. If Gillard was on the stand, she certainly would - as would Turnbull.

Rudd's a details man. Abbott's a big picture man. Rudd needs notes much more than Abbott,

I'd like to see the situation reversed. If Abbott had notes and Rudd talked off the cuff - that's the debate I'd like to see.

Whenever I go to any presentations I tend to get turned off people continuously referring to their notes, I even get the odd presenter reading out a script which suggests me they really don't agree or understand what they are saying.

If you truly believe something or are intimate with a subject matter you can speak without notes.

Rudd just bunches a bunch of lies together and is heavily scripted, telling the truth has a nice natural flow, when you start lying you need to keep thinking up new lies to fill in the gaps that lies create....... it like running on a treadmill with no controls.

I remember a few years ago, doing my HSC, we did a speech for English. It was supposed to be 7 minutes. One kid got up there with an essay written completely by his older brother. He stood there talking for 19 minutes without looking up from his transcript even once. Whenever you give a presentation of any kind, you mustn't refer to palm cards, except sporadically. It shows that you don't have confidence in what you are saying, and that you aren't even fully aware of the topic/s.

How did you go in your speech, Matty? Did you get good marks?

13/15.

Back to top

BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

IP Logged

Armchair_Politician

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 26402
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #58 - Aug 13^th, 2013 at 6:05am

Wigley0 wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:47am:

Everyone is having cracks at Rudd for using notes.
"He cheated!" "He couldn't do it without notes!" "Abbott wins because Rudd used notes!"

I would understand it if it was a competition for the President of the Debating Team, but it isn't. It's two potential leaders of the country debating who is better for the job by comparing policies and discussing facts.

I'm not excusing Kevin for 'cheating'. If they agreed not to use notes, they shouldn't have used notes... What I'm saying is why the hell would you agree to not use notes?

Without notes it becomes a competition for the person that has either the better memory or who is best at manipulating discussion without adding any real content. ie vague waffling without substance.

Ideally, you'd have all the important information written down in front of you; who said what, when and where they said it, what the statistics involved are, numbers of this and that, the proportion of x, y and z etc.

That way rather than 'who can waffle the best?' it becomes 'who genuinely has better policies based on statistics, evidence and facts'.

Or is everyone not quite sick to death of empty sales pitches and useless governments just yet?

Both sides signed off on the rules of the debate, including the "no notes" rule. Abbott adhered to that rule, Rudd didn't. Whatever your opinion on whether notes should be allowed or not, those were the rules agreed to. It's THAT simple. Rudd did cheat and I don't believe his lame excuse that no one told him he couldn't take notes to the lectern.

Back to top

IP Logged

RightSadFred

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 2220
Gender: male

Re: Why would you NOT use notes??
Reply #59 - Aug 13^th, 2013 at 8:36am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

RightSadFred wrote on Aug 12^th, 2013 at 9:06pm:

Verge

I use to dread open book exams as it gives them far greater scope to make the questions harder.

Philosophically I did not mind as in a work situation you often need to hit the books for tricky situations.

yes, open book exams hard.

I think this puts another smear on rudds character.
Cheating

Sprintcyclist

I didn't know that was possible.

I have had the guy pegged as a grub since he first appeared.

Back to top

IP Logged