Australian Politics Forum - They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.

greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 137907 Gender:	Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat. Reply #105 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 2:46pm Quantum wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 9:50am: If the government is going to financially help people it has ever right to specify how those finances will be used. Why is that? I asked you this before, but you didn't answer. Perhaps you didn't see my post. So, what's the rationale behind this belief of yours?
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FriYAY Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7395	Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat. Reply #106 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 2:57pm I'd restrict what the vouchers can be exchanged for as well. And no Tatts when your on welfare. I'd also like to some regimented drug testing, no drugs when your on welfare.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #107 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 3:00pm

FriYAY wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 2:57pm:

I'd restrict what the vouchers can be exchanged for as well.

So, do you agree with Quantum's statement then?

"If the government is going to financially help people it has ever right to specify how those finances will be used."

If so, what's the rationale behind your view?

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat. Reply #108 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 3:10pm You know what a lot of this comes down to? Attitude. Sure, you can say that you are helpless and expect other people to help you out all the time, or you can start thinking "What can I do to help myself?" Attitude. Watch this video and then dare to feel sorry for yourself.
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FriYAY

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #109 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 3:23pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 3:00pm:

FriYAY wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 2:57pm:

I'd restrict what the vouchers can be exchanged for as well.

So, do you agree with Quantum's statement then?

"If the government is going to financially help people it has ever right to specify how those finances will be used."

If so, what's the rationale behind your view?

There are some lifestyle choices that welfare should not fund. Especially the use of illicit drugs.

I'm not advocating total control of funds, but i agree that everything should be done to ensure $$ are spent of welfare, not selfish lifestyle choices.

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muso

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #110 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 3:33pm

I don't have a problem with applying the idea of vouchers to the long term unemployed, but where would you draw the line? If a person has been working and paying taxes for say 30 years without missing a beat and they found themselves temporarily out of work, would you then impose stringent conditions on them? They could make the argument that their own temporary welfare was self-financed.

Usually their Superannuation would be locked up until they are a certain age, so that's not normally an option.

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FriYAY

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #111 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 4:07pm

muso wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 3:33pm:

I don't have a problem with applying the idea of vouchers to the long term unemployed, but where would you draw the line? If a person has been working and paying taxes for say 30 years without missing a beat and they found themselves temporarily out of work, would you then impose stringent conditions on them? They could make the argument that their own temporary welfare was self-financed.

Usually their Superannuation would be locked up until they are a certain age, so that's not normally an option.

Individual cases might need adjustments. When i was forced on to the dole for a short period i self regulated...."luxuries" came a distant last on the shopping list.....some people might need help prioritising Wink

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Kat

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #112 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:28pm

muso wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 3:33pm:

I don't have a problem with applying the idea of vouchers to the long term unemployed, but where would you draw the line? If a person has been working and paying taxes for say 30 years without missing a beat and they found themselves temporarily out of work, would you then impose stringent conditions on them? They could make the argument that their own temporary welfare was self-financed.

Usually their Superannuation would be locked up until they are a certain age, so that's not normally an option.

Why?

Being long-term u/e doesn't mean you're an idiot, nor does it turn you into one. You don't lose 20 or 30 years worth of being able to manage your finances simply because you can't get a job.

Controlling the income/benefits of the long-term unemployed, simply because they ARE, is not reasonable or acceptable.

On the contrary, it's counter-productive and discriminatory in the extreme.

As I've stated previously, deal with the issue on a case-by-case basis, based on referrals from child welfare agencies and/or the police.

Otherwise, butt out.

And leave their cash payments alone...

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74708 Gender:	Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat. Reply #113 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:33pm Kat wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:28pm: Why? Because of the many that abuse the system .... why do we have gun control? Not everyone is going to shoot someone.
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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #114 - Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:34pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

Quantum wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 9:50am:

If the government is going to financially help people it has ever right to specify how those finances will be used.

Why is that?

I asked you this before, but you didn't answer. Perhaps you didn't see my post.

So, what's the rationale behind this belief of yours?

I trust that principle also works in reverse - If I'm going to financially help the government, I have every right to specify how those finances will be used.

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In the fullness of time...

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Kat

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #115 - Aug 19^th, 2013 at 6:10am

John Smith wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

Kat wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

Why?

Because of the many that abuse the system .... why do we have gun control? Not everyone is going to shoot someone.

But there are NOT 'many' who abuse the system.

They are a very small minority.

But this is the lie the conservatives continue to push because the gullible gobble it up.

And I fail to see how you can equate the dole with gun-control.

The unemployed don't kill people, any more than workers do.

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muso

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #116 - Aug 19^th, 2013 at 7:33am

Kat wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

Why?

Being long-term u/e doesn't mean you're an idiot, nor does it turn you into one. You don't lose 20 or 30 years worth of being able to manage your finances simply because you can't get a job.

Controlling the income/benefits of the long-term unemployed, simply because they ARE, is not reasonable or acceptable.

On the contrary, it's counter-productive and discriminatory in the extreme.

As I've stated previously, deal with the issue on a case-by-case basis, based on referrals from child welfare agencies and/or the police.

Otherwise, butt out.

And leave their cash payments alone...

I'm not implying anything about your personal situation. I don't know and it's not relevant.

It's all about pulling your weight. Maybe it is a small minority, but the rationale is that if I've been working all my life and paying tax, I'd take exception to bludgers, young or old drawing the dole and for example spending their life surfing at Broome. There are examples where they pool their dole, share a house for next to nothing per person, smoke drugs and drink alcohol.

In that post, I gave the example of a person who found themselves out of work after having contributed to the system, so I agree that some kind of assessment is necessary and it should be managed on a case by case basis. I presume that Centerlink would assess cases individually anyway, but for the more extreme cases, enough is enough.

It all comes down to attitude. Anybody could find a gainful employment if they just apply themselves. If they can't find paying employment, there is the option of becoming a volunteer. Any kind of work is a stepping stone to full time employment.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 137907 Gender:	Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat. Reply #117 - Aug 19^th, 2013 at 7:39am muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2013 at 7:33am: There are examples where they pool their dole, share a house for next to nothing per person, smoke drugs and drink alcohol. You sure we're not talking about envy here?
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Kat

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #118 - Aug 19^th, 2013 at 7:43am

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2013 at 7:33am:

Kat wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 7:28pm:

Why?

Being long-term u/e doesn't mean you're an idiot, nor does it turn you into one. You don't lose 20 or 30 years worth of being able to manage your finances simply because you can't get a job.

Controlling the income/benefits of the long-term unemployed, simply because they ARE, is not reasonable or acceptable.

On the contrary, it's counter-productive and discriminatory in the extreme.

As I've stated previously, deal with the issue on a case-by-case basis, based on referrals from child welfare agencies and/or the police.

Otherwise, butt out.

And leave their cash payments alone...

I'm not implying anything about your personal situation. I don't know and it's not relevant.

It's all about pulling your weight. Maybe it is a small minority, but the rationale is that if I've been working all my life and paying tax, I'd take exception to bludgers, young or old drawing the dole and for example spending their life surfing at Broome. There are examples where they pool their dole, share a house for next to nothing per person, smoke drugs and drink alcohol.

In that post, I gave the example of a person who found themselves out of work after having contributed to the system, so I agree that some kind of assessment is necessary and it should be managed on a case by case basis. I presume that Centerlink would assess cases individually anyway, but for the more extreme cases, enough is enough.

It all comes down to attitude. Anybody could find a gainful employment if they just apply themselves. If they can't find paying employment, there is the option of becoming a volunteer. Any kind of work is a stepping stone to full time employment.

OK, Muso, I misunderstood your comment, and I do agree with your last comment, by and large.

In fact, I'm actually one of the under-employed, I have paid work but it isn't constant, and I
do perform volunteer work the rest of the time. Can't abide just sitting around doing nothing, and, perhaps
naturally, tend to assume others are like-minded.

Most are, but I don't deny the existence of a minority who aren't. Which is why I suggested case-by-case
handling of the matter.

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FriYAY

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Re: They Are Simply Too Poor To Eat Meat.
Reply #119 - Aug 19^th, 2013 at 9:34am

greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 19^th, 2013 at 7:39am:

muso wrote on Aug 19^th, 2013 at 7:33am:

There are examples where they pool their dole, share a house for next to nothing per person, smoke drugs and drink alcohol.

You sure we're not talking about envy here?

Do you think the government should try and stop people spending welfare on illicit drugs?

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