Australian Politics Forum - Boycott halal

Brian Ross

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #225 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 3:11pm

Grey wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:27am:

I rather despair when such trivia as halal sausages being offered at a University sausage sizzle are conflated with Islamofascism. Not all Muslims are Jihadis like not all Jews are Zionists. Do get a grip on the real issues.

You're joking right? This bunch can create a Halal Mountain out of a Kosher molehill. Grin

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #226 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 3:18pm

freediver wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 10:10am:

Quote:

Market decides. If you want to sell your snags and your potential customers are Muslim, one would be rather stupid not to offer Halal food, don't you think?

Brian, if the market decided on discrimination in the workplace, would you still be indifferent?

FD, what is right, is not always popular, what is popular, is not always right.

Once upon a time a certain society believed it was right to feed the members of a certain religious group into ovens. That was popular but was it right?

Today, you are proposing something very similar. It once started with prejudice, then it became harassment, then it became much, much worse the only difference is that today your target is Muslims, not Jews.

Your attempt to compare apples and oranges (again) is a poor effort, grasping at straws to try and justify your discrimination and bigotry towards everything Muslim.

How long before you propose that they have to start wearing Green Crescents on their clothing, Mmm? Roll Eyes

And before you protest that is not your or any of the other bigots that you host here's intentions, just think about what you say and look at it from the perspective of Muslims.

Yes there are some loony Muslims who will never fit in but you judge all Muslims by their standards and that is in the realm of bigotry. How soon before your prejudice turns to hatred, mmm? Roll Eyes

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So you would be equally comfortable with each ethnic group setting up their own court in australa in order to deal with legal disputes and other matters?

Sounds like a great opportunity for each community to keep their legal outcomes secretive and perhaps even a means of preventing embarrassing legal cases from becoming public.

I am sure you would be very pleased with a law court set up in Australia that is based upon sharia law.

Chimp, that's what an out-of-court settlement is all about. It is encouraged because it saves a fortune in court costs and legal fees, regardless of people's motivations for doing it. Secrecy clauses are also quite common.

Indeed and guess what? That is allowed under the law. Its all part-and-parcel of entering into a private agreement...

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #227 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 3:24pm

moses wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Brian Ross wrote:
Quote:

As usual, that is merely your interpretation, Moses and we are well aware just how bigoted you are. I have no imam, Moses, I am not Muslim. Indeed your attempt to claim I do, merely indicates the paucity of your ability to argue against what I've said. Your simplistic "if you're not with me 100% you must be against me 100%" mentality displays how bigoted you are. No other interpretation than your Takfiri one is allowed. You are the mirror image of things you claim you oppose - irrational, bigoted, prejudiced and a zealot to boot.
&
As we know you are a bigot and a takfiri, your interpretation of all these issues is to put it quite simply wrong and mistaken. Your prejudice controls what little thinking you do.
&
Still tastes the same.

So many words Brian and not once did you address the issue of: the moon god allah being the acknowledged satanic deceiver of men in the quran.

Who cares? Isn't that really between Muslims and their god? Who are you to judge them and their beliefs? Your own religion is replete with believers who believe the most preposterous things, be it from the creationism of Genesis through to the supposedly virgin birth of Jesus Christ. You are entitled to your faith and beliefs but you won't extend that courtesy to Muslims for some reason. You must heckle and conjole and criticise them at every turn, for everything that one Muslim may have done thousands of kilometres and over a thousand years ago. Roll Eyes

Quote:

As this is purely a religious issue (food that has been sanctified by satan worshipers being forced on other people by stealth)

Again, that is your interpretation, Moses and we have seen how tainted your interpretations are by your religious bigotry and hatred.

Tell me, if you walked into a Restaurant run by Buddhists would you claim the same things because all the dishes they offer are vegetarian and blessed by a Tibetan Llama? Roll Eyes

I suspect not.

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freediver

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #228 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 4:31pm

Quote:

Today, you are proposing something very similar.

Brian why is it that every time I ask you a simple question you start making stuff up about me. I mean a complete fabrication that has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Do you think I am someone else from your glorious history of defending all that is right on internet forums? Here I am talking about discrimination and you think I am the Nazi?

Quote:

Your attempt to compare apples and oranges (again) is a poor effort, grasping at straws to try and justify your discrimination and bigotry towards everything Muslim.

What am I trying to compare? You are the only one making a comparison. This is all I asked: Brian, if the market decided on discrimination in the workplace, would you still be indifferent?

Quote:

And before you protest that is not your or any of the other bigots that you host here's intentions, just think about what you say and look at it from the perspective of Muslims.

Yes Brian I can understand why Muslims (and their limp-wristed apologists) would be upset by me always talking about freedom, democracy, human rights etc rather than respecting a Muslim's right to act like a 7th century Arab warlord.

Quote:

You must heckle and conjole and criticise them at every turn, for everything that one Muslim may have done thousands of kilometres and over a thousand years ago.

If Muslims would leave Muhammed in the 7th century, I'm sure everyone else would be more than happy to also.

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moses

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #229 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 4:50pm

Brian Ross wrote: Quote:

Who cares? Isn't that really between Muslims and their god? Who are you to judge them and their beliefs? Your own religion is replete with believers who believe the most preposterous things, be it from the creationism of Genesis through to the supposedly virgin birth of Jesus Christ. You are entitled to your faith and beliefs but you won't extend that courtesy to Muslims for some reason. You must heckle and conjole and criticise them at every turn, for everything that one Muslim may have done thousands of kilometres and over a thousand years ago.
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Again, that is your interpretation, Moses and we have seen how tainted your interpretations are by your religious bigotry and hatred.

Tell me, if you walked into a Restaurant run by Buddhists would you claim the same things because all the dishes they offer are vegetarian and blessed by a Tibetan Llama?

Once again you have run from the issue Brian:

This is purely a religious issue (food that has been sanctified by satan worshipers being forced on people with opposing beliefs, by stealth)

The moon god allah proudly proclaims to be a satanic deceiver of men in the quran.

We see behaviour befitting the devotees who revere the demonic allah, daily on the news.

Mass human rights atrocities being committed to the glory of allah , right around the globe wherever muslims are.

So in light of what islam represents in the 21st century, it's abundantly clear why religious people who are not islamic, object to their food having the satanic curse put on it by muslims.

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Torpedo

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #230 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 4:53pm

Muslim fascists as usual on their evil agenda, convert everyone, "familiarize" all with Islamic terms, label disagreed infidels "racists", demand face coverings, impose rules on groceries at ALL stores across Aus.

Hey, if you follow you lunatic religious modes, do at designated location, eat you halal at arab deli stores, but don't you even begin dictating to us what everyone else should be doing.

Or we'll demand to baptize every single one of you as Christian as a sign of your solidarity for OUR own values, which should be predominant.
Don't like it - you always have a choice... or we could help you to make that choice Wink

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #231 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 5:39pm

freediver wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 9:53am:

Again you completely miss the point Gandalf. Are you suggesting it is OK to institutionalise religious discrimination in the workplace, so long as you do it politely?

FD,perhaps for once you can respond by not hacking down a strawman, and answer my question regarding how and where the halal industry is, or will potentially discriminate against non-muslim workers? You say I miss the point, but I was the one who dealt with the point about employment directly - pointing out that you have yet to provide any evidence that the halal industry necessarily needs to cut out (and discriminate against) non-muslim workers, as well as suggesting that the halal industry will likely require more non-muslim workers, not less.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #232 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 7:54pm

Quote:

FD,perhaps for once you can respond by not hacking down a strawman, and answer my question regarding how and where the halal industry is, or will potentially discriminate against non-muslim workers?

You provided this information for us a few posts back Gandalf.

Quote:

as well as suggesting that the halal industry will likely require more non-muslim workers, not less

By invoking an imaginary scenario where cows are slaughtered in an entirely automated process.

But I suppose if it is merely a suggestion it does not have to face the reality test?

And why non-Muslims? Who is going to hire a Muslim to utter the prayer and not get him to actually do something useful at the same time? Is it because that is not possible for a Muslim?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #233 - Sep 8^th, 2013 at 10:05pm

freediver wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

By invoking an imaginary scenario where cows are slaughtered in an entirely automated process.

It is an imaginary scenario - dreamed up entirely by you. What I said was that there was a level of automation that would presumably be become less automated with halal slaughter. I never said that anything was "entirely automated". But please do keep the strawmen coming.

freediver wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

And why non-Muslims? Who is going to hire a Muslim to utter the prayer and not get him to actually do something useful at the same time? Is it because that is not possible for a Muslim?

The only required employee in a halal slaughterhouse is the slaughterer. Not exactly useless. You say the slaughterhouse wouldn't want to hire a "useless" muslim unless they were forced to - I say that being in the market where there is demand for meat that comes from a halal slaughterhouse is a pretty good incentive to hire these "useless" muslims.

The point is, your question...

Quote:

Are you suggesting it is OK to institutionalise religious discrimination in the workplace, so long as you do it politely?

...

cannot be answered because I reject the premise that institutionalised religious discrimination in the workforce is required for halal slaughter. You have not even attempted to substantiate this premise. Show me some evidence - actual evidence, not speculation - that this is the case, then we can talk.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #234 - Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:56pm

Quote:

What I said was that there was a level of automation that would presumably be become less automated with halal slaughter.

Why?

Quote:

The only required employee in a halal slaughterhouse is the slaughterer. Not exactly useless. You say the slaughterhouse wouldn't want to hire a "useless" muslim unless they were forced to - I say that being in the market where there is demand for meat that comes from a halal slaughterhouse is a pretty good incentive to hire these "useless" muslims.

You also suggested an alternative whereby a Muslim would be hired merely to say the prayer.

Quote:

cannot be answered because I reject the premise that institutionalised religious discrimination in the workforce is required for halal slaughter. You have not even attempted to substantiate this premise. Show me some evidence - actual evidence, not speculation - that this is the case, then we can talk.

It is not actually a premise. The question you quoted does not even refer directly to Islam or halal slaughter. It was you who suggested that halal slaughter involves religious discrimination in the workplace. I demand you prove it. Then we can talk. Otherwise we will merely be responding to each other.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #235 - Sep 9^th, 2013 at 10:23pm

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

Why?

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

You also suggested an alternative whereby a Muslim would be hired merely to say the prayer.

FD, I hate to break it to you - but i actually don't have much idea about how a halal slaughterhouse works. My assumption is that a halal slaughterhouse will require more manual handling of the animals, in order to position/restrain them to allow the "manual" slaughter. Whereas at least with chicken slaughter, the cut is made by a machine.

Also, I have learned since making that comment that the slaughterer does in fact need to be a practicing muslim - trained by a certified islamic organisation in halal slaughter. But on the other hand, this person is replacing no one - since he wouldn't be used in a non-halal slaughterhouse.

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

It was you who suggested that halal slaughter involves religious discrimination in the workplace.

I did? Please quote me the relevant comment. I'm not aware that I did. My point has been that any mandatory religious-only employee is someone who a non-halal slaughterhouse would not employ anyway. So no discrimination necessary.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #236 - Sep 9^th, 2013 at 10:41pm

Quote:

in order to position/restrain them to allow the "manual" slaughter

In what sense is it manual?

Quote:

Also, I have learned since making that comment that the slaughterer does in fact need to be a practicing muslim - trained by a certified islamic organisation in halal slaughter.

Ah, so no discrimination on religious grounds in the workplace then?

Quote:

But on the other hand, this person is replacing no one - since he wouldn't be used in a non-halal slaughterhouse.

No-one? Are you suggesting the alternative is entirely automated?

Quote:

I did? Please quote me the relevant comment.

Quote:

Also, I have learned since making that comment that the slaughterer does in fact need to be a practicing muslim - trained by a certified islamic organisation in halal slaughter.

Quote:

So no discrimination necessary.

So Muslim only jobs is not a form of discrimination? This is not a mosque we are talking about.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #237 - Sep 10^th, 2013 at 8:01am

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 10:41pm:

In what sense is it manual?

The throat is cut with a human hand.

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 10:41pm:

Ah, so no discrimination on religious grounds in the workplace then?

Correct.

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 10:41pm:

No-one? Are you suggesting the alternative is entirely automated?

How about you concentrate on backing up your claim that halal slaughterhouses necessarily require discrimination in the workforce. I have offered suggestions as to why it shouldn't be the case - but its up to you to prove your claim.

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 10:41pm:

So Muslim only jobs is not a form of discrimination? This is not a mosque we are talking about.

Not when its a job that otherwise wouldn't be required. Its only discrimination if you take an existing role that is non-discriminatory and replace that worker with a muslim only. You need to demonstrate how a halal-slaughterhouse would say to an ordinary non-muslim worker - "we don't need you because your role is taken by a muslim only". Or put it this way - if you transformed a non-halal slaughterhouse into a halal slaughterhouse, no argument has been presented that you would need to get rid of any existing non-muslim workers and replace them with muslim-only workers. You just need one extra muslim guy, and most likely even more non-muslims. But its up to you to prove your claim, not me.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric
Reply #238 - Sep 10^th, 2013 at 1:08pm

Quote:

The throat is cut with a human hand.

Wouldn't it be better to use a knife? I'm sure they had those in Muhammed's day.

Quote:

How about you concentrate on backing up your claim that halal slaughterhouses necessarily require discrimination in the workforce.

You are the one saying it Gandalf. You just don't understand it.

Quote:

Not when its a job that otherwise wouldn't be required.

It is still discrimination Gandalf. It would not be discrimination if anyone was allowed to cut the animal's throat in the approved manner. If the job can only be performed by a Muslim, that is discrimination.

Is the throat-slitter forbidden from doing any other useful tasks that would still be required in a non-halal slaughterhouse?

Quote:

Its only discrimination if you take an existing role that is non-discriminatory and replace that worker with a muslim only.

So if a company came up with a policy that all newly-created positions must be filled by non-Muslims so they could put anti-terrorism stickers on their food, you would not complain about it being discrimination?

Quote:

You need to demonstrate how a halal-slaughterhouse would say to an ordinary non-muslim worker - "we don't need you because your role is taken by a muslim only".

No I don't. This is obviously religious discrimination in the workplace.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Boycott halal - it's barbaric Reply #239 - Sep 10^th, 2013 at 3:41pm freediver wrote on Sep 10^th, 2013 at 1:08pm: This is obviously religious discrimination in the workplace. No non-muslim abbattoir worker is being told that their role, or the role they wish to fill can only be filled by a muslim. It is not discrimination.
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