Australian Politics Forum - Hockey caught out again

adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Hockey caught out again Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets. Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt
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cods

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #1 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:35pm

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

yeah we righties no what you mean.. we have just had 6 years of mean and tricky....enough is enough...

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Dsmithy70 Gold Member Offline ire futuis vobismetipsis Posts: 13147 Newy Gender:	Re: Hockey caught out again Reply #2 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:39pm
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Hockey caught out again Reply #3 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm: Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets. Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?
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John Smith

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #4 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:47pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?

you don't think $200B in debt is better than $400B in debt? Cheesy

You want to lend some money? I'm offering great rates ....

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139402 Gender:	Re: Hockey caught out again Reply #5 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:48pm
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Dsmithy70

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #6 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:48pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?

Yeah not the point.
Just tell the smacking truth.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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adelcrow

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #7 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:54pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?

Yeah not the point.
Just tell the smacking truth.

Over 80 billion dollars of debt left by the Howard govt is closer to the truth..0 debt is a lie

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Go the Bunnies

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longweekend58

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #8 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:15pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?

Yeah not the point.
Just tell the smacking truth.

I would agree about using consistent methodology but be careful before you demand that too often. labor has been guilty many times of using convenient terminology. The 'structural deficit' is the classic. This is how you turn a worlds-best surplus into a deficit by using words instead of numbers. Im just waiting for some numbskull to tell us that we have a structural surplus now.

consistent terma and methodologies are a two-edged sword so be careful before you try and wield it too self-righteously.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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perceptions_now

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #9 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:15pm

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.

Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

Ah, that's what I was referring to here -

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 4:04pm:

crocodile wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 2:03pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 9:00am:

# wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:

Maqqa wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 3:19pm:

Debt under LIBs = ZERO

Debt under ALP = $300B

GFC

You've made the rather common mistake of comparing gross debt to net debt. The coalition never had gross debt below zero. The lowest gross debt was end of 2006 at around 50 bil.

Net debt was negative as claimed. If you want to compare debts then you really should either compare net with net or gross with gross. As of today, government net debt is around 180 bil.

It ended years ago. Why not blame the Great Depression too??? Roll Eyes

Gross Debt is/was, as follows -
Date (30 June) Gross Debt ($ millions)
2007 58,284
2008 60,462
2009 101,147
2010 147,133
2011 191,291
2012 233,976
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_national_debt

The Net Debt situation, from 1970-now can be found at the following site -
http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/myefo/html/13_appendix_d.htm
As can be seen, the Libs picked up a Net Debt on taking office in 1996, which Peaked at some $96 Billion, they then converted that into a Net Credit of $45 Billion on leaving office in 2007 ,just as the GFC was getting under way.
The last figures, on this article, shows Labor going back to a Net Debt of around $144 Billion at the end of June 2012.
It is also worth noting that Net Debt rose initially when Hawke/Keating won office in 1983. It then fell back to more usual levels, before rising again, which co-incided with the Economic slowdown of the early to mid 1990's.

It should also be noted that Hockey actually went urther than Maqqa, by claiming Zero Debt when the Libs left office & that Labor would leave a $400 Billion Debt on leaving office. Given the above, it would seem both Maqqa & Joe have used the Libs Net Debt on leaving office AND both have used the Gross Labor Debt, with Maqqa maybe using an estimate for the end of June 2014 & Joe perhaps using a forward estimate guestimate for 2017???

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longweekend58

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #10 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:16pm

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:54pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?

Yeah not the point.
Just tell the smacking truth.

Over 80 billion dollars of debt left by the Howard govt is closer to the truth..0 debt is a lie

the facts don't support that however.. but you never let that get in the way, do you? But ironically here you are doing EXACLTY what you deride Hockey for doing.

idiot.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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perceptions_now

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #11 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:41pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:16pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:54pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?

Yeah not the point.
Just tell the smacking truth.

Over 80 billion dollars of debt left by the Howard govt is closer to the truth..0 debt is a lie

the facts don't support that however.. but you never let that get in the way, do you? But ironically here you are doing EXACLTY what you deride Hockey for doing.

idiot.

In fact, the Howard Libs left a Gross Debt of about $60 Billion and their NET Debt was actually a Credit of about $45 Billion, when they left office.

The current Gross Debt is about $260 Billion & Net Debt is about $144 Billion.

And, before those on both sides start their SPIN, it should be noted that -
1) The Howard years (1996-2007) were Peak Global Economic years , due to the Baby Boomer Boom.

Whilst these were Peak Economic years, credit should go to the Libs, as they clearly out performed most other Politicians from around the world, who did little to nothing to take advantage of the Boom times.

That said, quite a bit of the Libs Debt pay-down of Debt did come from asset sales AND they sold a whole bundle of gold at around $250 a ton, which is now worth around $1,400 a ton.

2) The Labor years (2007-2013) have seen the GFC commence, which is 2nd only to the great Depression & it is certainly far from over.

Whilst Labor has had a torrid Global Economy, they haven't gone overboard with increasing Debt, as did many other countries, BUT they certainly did create a few sizable errors (cock-ups), along the way!

It is appropriate that, Politicians from both major party's should be forced to use factually correct information!

Perhaps, IF they fail to do so, THEN THEY COULD BE SENT TO THE "NAUGHTY CHAIR" FOR A WEEK AS PUNISHMENT?

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adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Re: Hockey caught out again Reply #12 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:52pm The truth will set Hockey free...so why does he continue to lie and deceive? We all know what happens to govts that attain power based on lies and deceptions dont we...
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Bam

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #13 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:52pm

The trouble with being wilfully inconsistent to exaggerate a point is that once someone is caught out doing that it sows the seeds of mistrust. If Hockey was a business director doing this on an annual report, he would be charged and convicted for breaching corporation law.

If the debt problem is actually bad, there is no need to resort to such obvious spin and trickery. A simple comparison of like with like will be sufficient.

Like with like, 100% accurate (from ABC Online's Fact Check):
Gross debt - $59 billion (2007 election) to $268 billion (2013 election).
Net debt: net assets of $31 billion to net debt of $184 billion.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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longweekend58

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Re: Hockey caught out again
Reply #14 - Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:53pm

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:41pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 7:16pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:54pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:42pm:

adelcrow wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 6:30pm:

Hockey has again been caught out using net debt figures when referring to the Coalitions past budgets and gross debt when referring to Labors budgets.
Yep ..just what we need... another mean and tricky Coalition govt Grin

and net debt makes it look better?? $200B net debt vs $0?

Yeah not the point.
Just tell the smacking truth.

Over 80 billion dollars of debt left by the Howard govt is closer to the truth..0 debt is a lie

the facts don't support that however.. but you never let that get in the way, do you? But ironically here you are doing EXACLTY what you deride Hockey for doing.

idiot.

In fact, the Howard Libs left a Gross Debt of about $60 Billion and their NET Debt was actually a Credit of about $45 Billion, when they left office.

The current Gross Debt is about $260 Billion & Net Debt is about $144 Billion.

And, before those on both sides start their SPIN, it should be noted that -
1) The Howard years (1996-2007) were Peak Global Economic years , due to the Baby Boomer Boom.

Whilst these were Peak Economic years, credit should go to the Libs, as they clearly out performed most other Politicians from around the world, who did little to nothing to take advantage of the Boom times.

That said, quite a bit of the Libs Debt pay-down of Debt did come from asset sales AND they sold a whole bundle of gold at around $250 a ton, which is now worth around $1,400 a ton.

2) The Labor years (2007-2013) have seen the GFC commence, which is 2nd only to the great Depression & it is certainly far from over.

Whilst Labor has had a torrid Global Economy, they haven't gone overboard with increasing Debt, as did many other countries, BUT they certainly did create a few sizable errors (cock-ups), along the way!

It is appropriate that, Politicians from both major party's should be forced to use factually correct information!

Perhaps, IF they fail to do so, THEN THEY COULD BE SENT TO THE "NAUGHTY CHAIR" FOR A WEEK AS PUNISHMENT?

it should be noted that he $144B net debt is a figure from a year ago and is likely top be notably higher. After all, those deficits don't fund themselves.

Anyhow, using these net figures the picture is an embarrassment of epic proportions. $45B in the bank in cash and a mere 6 years later we are $200B+ worse off. It is hard to look at that as anything other than an epic fail.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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