Australian Politics Forum - Where is this budget emergency

longweekend58

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #90 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:41pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:37pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:19pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 3:42pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 1:26pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 9:33am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 12:17am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 11:14pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 8:19pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 5:36pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 5:31pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 5:27pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 5:22pm:

I've never really understood how funding pink batts made the government responsible for the accidental deaths of independent contractors installing them.

Governments fund all sorts of things - wars, prisons, emergency services, pharmaceuticals. How many people have overdosed on drugs funded under the PBS?

Explain that one, leftards.

ive never understood why of all the industries in Australia rudd chose insulation. were there not 100 other industries that could have shared in the cash which would have stimulated the economy just as well, yet not overdone it so badly?

Perhaps. Who's to blame though - the government who funds it, or the people who clamoured to get them in their homes?

I believe Andrei had them put in his rental property. Nice pink ones. All gratis, of course.

Andrei hates the government for that one. Mind you, he votes in the UK.

again... few people say no to free stuff. That doesn't mean it was right. The stimulus - which apparently we needed long term - could have fixed the bruce highway. It could have built water infrastructure like Howard contracted, then Rudd cancelled and never visited again. all that money and we have so little to show for it. BER is fine for some but hear the stories of people trying to get their own homes built at normal prices while builders were off building school halls at huge profit.

other stimulus ideas:

Taking the GST off cars and other charges to stimulate sales
reducing company tax for a year
eliminate payroll tax for a year to save jobs
Build dams for struggling farming communities
Fix roads

but what did we get??? pink friggin batts and school halls. for $200B I expected a hell of a lot more.

Longy, if I remember rightly, you opposed each and every stimulus measure during the GFC. You would have opposed all those things you mention above, and God forbid anyone building a road or getting no payroll tax getting killed on the job.

You’d have blamed the government no matter what.

Mind you, if it was a Howard government...

what stimulus measures? a massive cash giveaway of which less than 20% made it into stimulatory spending or the BER which spent money with little regard for value or need or the pink batts which addressed just ONE industry out of hundreds and sent companies to the wall as a result.

nothing to criticse there, is there? I gave my suggestsion. Each one of them far worthier and far more effective than one-man-bands idea from the back of an envelope.

One-man band, eh? Guess who dreamed up the pink batts scheme.

Yes, the department of environment when Howard was in office.

Still, criticize away - knock yourself out. My suggestion is that blaming the government for the deaths of contractors is a great leap of faith.

Anyone blame the government for asbestos? Dodgy army catering? The old war wound?

How many Vietnam vets do you hear blaming Harold Holt for their tinitus and alcoholism the way Bolt et al blame Rudd personally for pink batt installation deaths on an almost daily basis?

care to support that with a fact or two?

there is a bit of a difference between a govt-sponsored insulation scheme that SUBSIDISED (rather than paid for) as part of a energy reduction program and the mad rush to spend money under Rudd.

I see. But you're saying a mad rush to build roads would have been preferable.

Your plan is an excellent idea, Longy. We should subsidize (rather than pay for) people to build their own roads.

This is a bit like the Libs' broadband plan. Maybe Mr Abbott can build roads that stop a few meters from people's houses.

the 'mad rush' was half the trouble. A competent govt would have had months to prepare a swathe of stimulus projects and implemented them rapidly but responsibly.

Gee Longy, make up your mind. You said you didn't want a swathe of well-prepared stimulus projects. You wanted tax cuts and roads.

Mind you, the NBN hasn't been a mad rush, has it? Now that's competency.

it might help you Karnal if you understood that not everybody else speaks in endless riddles and stupidity like you do. I mostly avoid your posts because if you aren't wanking on about Matty or some other blithering stupidity you are talking in circles and making not much more sense then corpulent-whiney. Now either enter the debate as an adult or take your sideshow somewhere else.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Karnal

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #91 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 5:08pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:41pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:37pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:19pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 3:42pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 1:26pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 9:33am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 12:17am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 11:14pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 8:19pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 5:36pm:

[quote author=Karnal link=1377041479/37#37 date=1377070264][quote author=longweekend58 link=1377041479/34#34 date=1377070052][quote author=Karnal link=1377041479/32#32 date=1377069735]I've never really understood how funding pink batts made the government responsible for the accidental deaths of independent contractors installing them.

but what did we get??? pink friggin batts and school halls. for $200B I expected a hell of a lot more.

Longy, if I remember rightly, you opposed each and every stimulus measure during the GFC. You would have opposed all those things you mention above, and God forbid anyone building a road or getting no payroll tax getting killed on the job.

You’d have blamed the government no matter what.

Mind you, if it was a Howard government...

what stimulus measures? a massive cash giveaway of which less than 20% made it into stimulatory spending or the BER which spent money with little regard for value or need or the pink batts which addressed just ONE industry out of hundreds and sent companies to the wall as a result.

nothing to criticse there, is there? I gave my suggestsion. Each one of them far worthier and far more effective than one-man-bands idea from the back of an envelope.

One-man band, eh? Guess who dreamed up the pink batts scheme.

Yes, the department of environment when Howard was in office.

Still, criticize away - knock yourself out. My suggestion is that blaming the government for the deaths of contractors is a great leap of faith.

Anyone blame the government for asbestos? Dodgy army catering? The old war wound?

How many Vietnam vets do you hear blaming Harold Holt for their tinitus and alcoholism the way Bolt et al blame Rudd personally for pink batt installation deaths on an almost daily basis?

care to support that with a fact or two?

there is a bit of a difference between a govt-sponsored insulation scheme that SUBSIDISED (rather than paid for) as part of a energy reduction program and the mad rush to spend money under Rudd.

I see. But you're saying a mad rush to build roads would have been preferable.

Your plan is an excellent idea, Longy. We should subsidize (rather than pay for) people to build their own roads.

This is a bit like the Libs' broadband plan. Maybe Mr Abbott can build roads that stop a few meters from people's houses.

the 'mad rush' was half the trouble. A competent govt would have had months to prepare a swathe of stimulus projects and implemented them rapidly but responsibly.

Gee Longy, make up your mind. You said you didn't want a swathe of well-prepared stimulus projects. You wanted tax cuts and roads.

Mind you, the NBN hasn't been a mad rush, has it? Now that's competency.

it might help you Karnal if you understood that not everybody else speaks in endless riddles and stupidity like you do. I mostly avoid your posts because if you aren't wanking on about Matty or some other blithering stupidity you are talking in circles and making not much more sense then corpulent-whiney. Now either enter the debate as an adult or take your sideshow somewhere else.

How dare you. I most certainly do not wank along with Matty - Matty is currently in Dunedin and does not always have internet access.

You can either A: Address my points and provide proof; or

B. Admit defeat.

I'm moving for the latter. Good luck proving that road building got Australia out of A: the Great Depression; and

B: Would have worked for the GFC.

Proof please, leftard.

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Karnal

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #92 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 5:13pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:35pm:

# wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:30pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:19pm:

... A competent govt would have had months to prepare a swathe of stimulus projects and implemented them rapidly but responsibly.

Would any government have had months for preparation? If they'd waited months, would it have worked?

what makes you think the situation was so dire and so desperate that the economy would plunge into depression if 'something' wasn't done absolute immediately with big buckets of cash?

A competent, newly-elected government should:

A. Have well prepared stimulus projects in case of a financial meltdown, or

B. Do nothing to stimulate the economy because the rest of the world is just pretending to be in global recession.

You'll need to make up your mind on this one as well, Longy.

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perceptions_now

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #93 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 5:50pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 11:41am:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 11:24am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 11:12am:

John S wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:58am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:50am:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:39am:

John S wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:31am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 11:12pm:

road building was THE STIMULUS project used to end the great depression. you get dumber the more you post.

learn a bit of history longy it wasn't road building that was used to end the great depression it was the Second World War

Correct, WW2 AND A MASSIVE BABY BOOM THAT FOLLOWED!

you are both wrong. while the war did pull the world out of the depression for good what began the process was American construction of roads - mainly cement - as a stimulus program to get the masses of unemployed working again.

try reading some history people.

the only reason that roads were built was for the war effort nothing more nothing less

the road building project started 5 years BEFORE WW2 and 7 years before USA entered the war.

road building is THET standard stimulus package which of course our stupid labor govt didn't go with.

As I have said previously Longy, YOU HAVE NFI!

That is a self defeating argument!

You are saying that those packages, which "saved" the Economy, started around 1934-1936, BUT the Economy was on the ropes again, as indicated by the share market, from around 1937-1942, before the massive WW2 stimulus started having its impact around 1942.

read some economics books will you just for once?? the road-building stimulus is credited with being the initiative that started the process of dragging the USA out of the intractable depression. On one hand you support stimulus - as long as it is your version of it of course - but reject historical examples of it that were successful.

you are one complex, twisted and dopy drongo.

" Stock market returns are a leading indicator:
the stock market usually begins to decline before the economy as a whole declines
and usually begins to improve before the general economy begins to recover from a slump."

As already stated, the US DOW had started to slump again around 1937 & by 1942 it had lost over 50% of its value.

In June 1937, the Roosevelt administration cut spending and increased taxation in an attempt to balance the federal budget.

The American economy then took a sharp downturn -
Industrial production fell almost 30 per cent within a few months and production of durable goods fell even faster.
Unemployment jumped from 14.3% in 1937 to 19.0% in 1938.
Manufacturing output fell by 37% from the 1937 peak and was back to 1934 levels.

I have said, on numerous occasions, that both Austrian & Keynesian Economic fixes have often be successful in the past & I say it again now, BUT neither will work now.

However, the Great Depression was another example, similar to the current GFC, where both Austrian & Keynesian Economic fixes did not work, as intended!

First came the stimulus, which were partially effective, but drove up Debt, then came the Expenditure cuts & the Economy fell into another huge hole.

As indicated, by one of the best Economic indicators, THE SHARE MARKET, the US Economy went down hill between 1937-1942 and the following 2 charts ARE THE REASON FOR THE US ECONOMY'S SURGE AGAIN, AS FROM 1942 -

I don't expect that you will see the similarities Longy, BUT there will be others who will!

The, as now, Stimuli's were applied, Expenditure cuts (Aus-terity) is most likely on its way & Birthrates/Population Growth had crashed prior to the Economic crash. Btw, the US Debt to GDP raio is now over 100%.

There are 2 BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE GREAT DEPRESSION & NOW -
1) ANOTHER BABY BOOM IS IMPOSSIBLE, AS WE ARE ALREADY BEYOND WHAT THE PLANET CAN SUSTAIN, PARTICULARLY IN FOOD, WATER & ENERGY!
2) ANOTHER WAR NOW, WOULD COMPLETELY DECIMATE HUMANITY, BECAUSE OUR TECHNOLOGY "HAS COME SO FAR"!

Btw Longy, You still have NFI!

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longweekend58

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #94 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 6:12pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 5:13pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:35pm:

# wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:30pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:19pm:

... A competent govt would have had months to prepare a swathe of stimulus projects and implemented them rapidly but responsibly.

Would any government have had months for preparation? If they'd waited months, would it have worked?

what makes you think the situation was so dire and so desperate that the economy would plunge into depression if 'something' wasn't done absolute immediately with big buckets of cash?

A competent, newly-elected government should:

A. Have well prepared stimulus projects in case of a financial meltdown, or

B. Do nothing to stimulate the economy because the rest of the world is just pretending to be in global recession.

You'll need to make up your mind on this one as well, Longy.

on what planet was your idiotic response related to my post?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Karnal

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #95 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 6:27pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 6:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 5:13pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:35pm:

# wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:30pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:19pm:

... A competent govt would have had months to prepare a swathe of stimulus projects and implemented them rapidly but responsibly.

Would any government have had months for preparation? If they'd waited months, would it have worked?

what makes you think the situation was so dire and so desperate that the economy would plunge into depression if 'something' wasn't done absolute immediately with big buckets of cash?

A competent, newly-elected government should:

A. Have well prepared stimulus projects in case of a financial meltdown, or

B. Do nothing to stimulate the economy because the rest of the world is just pretending to be in global recession.

You'll need to make up your mind on this one as well, Longy.

on what planet was your idiotic response related to my post?

You know very well. You can’t pretend with us, Longy.

That’s the problem with you leftards. You can’t engage in civilised debate without:

A. Having a hissy fit; or

B. Playing coy.

Wait until Matty gets in. You won’t be happy then!

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perceptions_now

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #96 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 7:20pm

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 5:50pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 11:41am:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 11:24am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 11:12am:

John S wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:58am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:50am:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:39am:

John S wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 10:31am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21^st, 2013 at 11:12pm:

road building was THE STIMULUS project used to end the great depression. you get dumber the more you post.

learn a bit of history longy it wasn't road building that was used to end the great depression it was the Second World War

Correct, WW2 AND A MASSIVE BABY BOOM THAT FOLLOWED!

you are both wrong. while the war did pull the world out of the depression for good what began the process was American construction of roads - mainly cement - as a stimulus program to get the masses of unemployed working again.

try reading some history people.

the only reason that roads were built was for the war effort nothing more nothing less

the road building project started 5 years BEFORE WW2 and 7 years before USA entered the war.

road building is THET standard stimulus package which of course our stupid labor govt didn't go with.

As I have said previously Longy, YOU HAVE NFI!

That is a self defeating argument!

You are saying that those packages, which "saved" the Economy, started around 1934-1936, BUT the Economy was on the ropes again, as indicated by the share market, from around 1937-1942, before the massive WW2 stimulus started having its impact around 1942.

read some economics books will you just for once?? the road-building stimulus is credited with being the initiative that started the process of dragging the USA out of the intractable depression. On one hand you support stimulus - as long as it is your version of it of course - but reject historical examples of it that were successful.

you are one complex, twisted and dopy drongo.

" Stock market returns are a leading indicator:
the stock market usually begins to decline before the economy as a whole declines
and usually begins to improve before the general economy begins to recover from a slump."

As already stated, the US DOW had started to slump again around 1937 & by 1942 it had lost over 50% of its value.

In June 1937, the Roosevelt administration cut spending and increased taxation in an attempt to balance the federal budget.

The American economy then took a sharp downturn -
Industrial production fell almost 30 per cent within a few months and production of durable goods fell even faster.
Unemployment jumped from 14.3% in 1937 to 19.0% in 1938.
Manufacturing output fell by 37% from the 1937 peak and was back to 1934 levels.

I have said, on numerous occasions, that both Austrian & Keynesian Economic fixes have often be successful in the past & I say it again now, BUT neither will work now.

However, the Great Depression was another example, similar to the current GFC, where both Austrian & Keynesian Economic fixes did not work, as intended!

First came the stimulus, which were partially effective, but drove up Debt, then came the Expenditure cuts & the Economy fell into another huge hole.

As indicated, by one of the best Economic indicators, THE SHARE MARKET, the US Economy went down hill between 1937-1942 and the following 2 charts ARE THE REASON FOR THE US ECONOMY'S SURGE AGAIN, AS FROM 1942 -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Publicly_Held_Federal_D...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F1m_4DpIq0/Ubd8wJlUYlI/AAAAAAAAACA/bOvfvYTTqEk/s400/D...

I don't expect that you will see the similarities Longy, BUT there will be others who will!

Then, as now, Stimuli's were applied, Expenditure cuts (Aus-terity) is most likely on its way & Birthrates/Population Growth had crashed prior to the Economic crash. Btw, the US Debt to GDP ratio is now over 100%.

There are 2 BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE GREAT DEPRESSION & NOW -
1) ANOTHER BABY BOOM IS IMPOSSIBLE, AS WE ARE ALREADY BEYOND WHAT THE PLANET CAN SUSTAIN, PARTICULARLY IN FOOD, WATER & ENERGY!
2) ANOTHER WAR NOW, WOULD COMPLETELY DECIMATE HUMANITY, BECAUSE OUR TECHNOLOGY "HAS COME SO FAR"!

Btw Longy, You still have NFI!

Besides Longy, who has NFI, can anyone see the similarities, then to now & the likely consequences?

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #97 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 8:54pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:35pm:

# wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:30pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 4:19pm:

... A competent govt would have had months to prepare a swathe of stimulus projects and implemented them rapidly but responsibly.

Would any government have had months for preparation? If they'd waited months, would it have worked?

what makes you think the situation was so dire and so desperate that the economy would plunge into depression if 'something' wasn't done absolute immediately with big buckets of cash?

What makes you think otherwise? What was the rationale for such quick action? What are your qualifications for thinking you know better?

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Karnal

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #98 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 9:01pm

Read your history, people. Road building in the USA, otherwise known as the boom in highways, didn’t really take off until AFTER WWII.

Prior to WWII, they were still building railways. After WWII, the oil and auto companies were madly buying up the tracks.

Longy wants facts. Here’s one: the US didn’t have enough cars before the war to focus on roads. The big stimulus measures were public transport projects like the Chicago El and the NY Subway extentions.

Facts.

Hitler was a road builder, but only the Autobahn. The war in Europe ran on rail.

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perceptions_now

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Re: Where is this budget emergency
Reply #99 - Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 11:43pm

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2013 at 7:20pm: