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Question: SPIN or REALITY



« Created by: perceptions_now on: Aug 26th, 2013 at 4:54pm »

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Political SPIN & Reality (Read 27014 times)
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #45 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:13pm
 

percetpions only - I am happy to answer.

no, every year need not be a surplus.
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #46 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:15pm
 
17/8/13 20.59
Un-sustainability of a Government debt (Gross) level above 60-90% of a country’s GDP, is a level generally accepted by Economists.

Personally, I would have a great preference to keep the Gross Debt to GDP ratio UNDER 45%, as it can get very difficult to actually repay government Debt, except for exceptional circumstances, such as the Peak years of the Baby Boomer Boom!

The level of tolerable Government debt depends on a multitude of factors, such as -
1) The borrowing currency is also a major reserve currency! If it is, then it may be seen to reduce risk levels & increase the possibility of "Printing" more money, to assist in servicing the Debt issue? Some related issues are currently percolating in the USA.

2) Who will own the government Debt, Locals or Foreign sources? The larger the Foreign component, the more difficulties may be experienced?

3) The Likely level of interest rates that will be payable on the Government Debt, over the short, medium & longer term? Higher rates (particularly short to medium term) make higher Debt MORE difficult  to service, whereas Lower rates make Debt LESS difficult to service?

4) But, expected economic growth, is the most important factor!
Higher levels of expected growth, will increase the likelihood of higher Tax Revenues, thus possibly increasing the attractiveness of investing in that Government Debt & possibly lowering the rates payable?   
Lower levels of expected growth, will increase the likelihood of lower Tax Revenues, thus possibly decreasing the attractiveness of investing in that Government Debt & possibly increasing the rates payable?

Of course, these are government & Market REACTIONS TO THE REAL ECONOMY and that real Economy is now being driven by 3 major factors, each of which has or is, in the process of change course, compared to their positions, over the last 50-60 years in particular & those factors are -
1) Demographic Changes - Over the last 70 years or so, we have seen the largest Population explosion in human history, which is now Peaking, before going into actual reverse over the next 20-30 years.
The major effect here is that the rate of increase in DEMAND for all forms of Goods & Services skyrocketed between WW2, until the early part of this new century, BUT since then DEMAND has started to wane & the rate of increase in DEMAND has commenced to slow.
Over the next 20-30 years, DEMAND for all forms of Goods & Services will first level off & then commence to Decline and no amount of stimulus will change that basic fact!
2) Energy (Supply & Pricing) - This is one of 3 great enablers to the Demographic surge between 1945-2005 and the massive discoveries of Fossil Fuels (such as Oil, Coal & Gas), at very low Prices, assisted the massive Population growth over that period.
However, the rate of growth in Supply started to taper off in the late 1990's, became more evident in the first decade of the new century and the resultant lack of Supply/increasing Demand showed up in massive Price hikes, with Oil going from $10 a barrel in 1999, to around $148 a barrel in 2008.
The major effect here, is that Fossil Fuels & Oil in particular are involved in almost every Product & Service known to humanity AND the increasing Prices of Fossil Fuels are driving Price hikes across the board, with the Publics Disposable income taking a substantial hit, over the last decade or so AND THAT WILL CONTINUE, AS THERE IS NO VIABLE ENERGY ALTERNATIVE THAT CAN DELIVER BOTH SUFFICIENT VOLUME & THE RIGHT PRICE!
Of course, the consumer hit to their hip pocket, MUST & IS, BEING REFLECTED BY A DECLINE IN DEMAND!

By the way, the other 2 great enablers are -
Climate - We have had a goldilocks climate for several hundred years, which has greatly assisted in accommodating the additional Population, primarily by way of providing sufficient Food & Fresh Water.
Technology - Human Technology has exploded, particularly over the last 100-200 years and that has provided an enormous boost in Productivity, again assisting the Population explosion in a myriad of ways.
That said, the goldilocks climate is now in the process of ending, whether it be natural or human assisted is still being argued out, although I would agree there is a degree of human cause involved.
Which leaves us with Technology and as I have said previously, Technology may again ride over the hill to our combined rescue, BUT AGAIN I WOULD COUNCIL AGAINST RELYING ON LAST MINUTE, OUT OF THE BLUE CAVALRY CHARGE BY THE TECHNOLOGY BRIGADE, AS IT IS SIMPLY NOT GOOD PUBLIC POLICY!

No, IF we want a future for ourselves, our children & our children's children, then we will have to start making some really tough decisions & we will have to start NOW!

We will need -
A complete review of Government Taxes, Expenditure and all government Policies.
Specific Tax increases & lower Expenditure & an emphasis on Productivity.
Co-operation across all Political parties, for the longer term benefit of all Australians.
AND, all of the above, will also need to take place Globally.

Can this & much more be done? The answer is YES!
Will it be done? On that, the realist in me, is nowhere near as confident AND the flow on effects from the Demographic & Energy factors, will place Growth in particular extremely difficult and return to past Economics absolutely impossible!

In any event, knowledge is everything and at least if you are armed with what is really going on, then your chances are better of getting better outcomes.
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #47 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:17pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 4:54pm:
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 3:57pm:
Facts (provided by the Australian Treasury)

1. Gross debt in Australia has increased by 350% in the 6 years of ALP Government.
2. The projected surplus of A$1.5bn for 2013 blew out to be A30.1bn deficit.
3. The performance of the Government in its second term to its forecasts amounted to misses of A$109bn.
4. Business confidence in Australia had hit a low of 8 months following the write downs of its projected forecasts in Aug 2013.

5. The gross debt of Australia in 2007 delivered by the outgoing Howard Government was $58,284,000,000.
The debt at June 2013 is A$264,976,000,000.
An increase of A$206.7bn.....


Facts.


Yep, ok they are fair statements, BUT the real underlying issue is -
Q) Why did the government take those actions & putting aside the fact that some errors were certainly made, in terms of implementation, were the basics of the actions correct in implementing a stimulus approach?
A) That a reasonable sized stimulation was the correct action, particularly given the size of the GFC and the GFC was the basic reason for the action, as the costs to the OZ Economy would have reflected great damage, IF action was not taken!
That is not to say that there is an open & endless opportunity for ongoing Stimuli, nor is there an excuse to continue driving the Debt to GDP ratio higher, particularly as it won't now have the same or similar desirable outcomes.   

Oh & btw, Business confidence will continue to fall, whether the Liberals or Labor win this election, although I think the Libs are likely narrow winners, as the Local & Global Economy continues to slow over the period ahead!

Part of my reasoning for that statement is at -
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376715205/29#29
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #48 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:19pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 5:48pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 5:01pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 2:09pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 10:59pm:
No, IF we want a future for ourselves, our children & our children's children, then we will have to start making some really tough decisions & we will have to start NOW!

We will need -
A complete review of Government Taxes, Expenditure and all government Policies.
Specific Tax increases & lower Expenditure & an emphasis on Productivity.
Co-operation across all Political parties, for the longer term benefit of all Australians.
AND, all of the above, will also need to take place Globally.

Can this & much more be done? The answer is YES!
Will it be done? On that, the realist in me, is nowhere near as confident AND the flow on effects from the Demographic & Energy factors, will place Growth in particular extremely difficult and return to past Economics absolutely impossible!

In any event, knowledge is everything and at least if you are armed with what is really going on, then your chances are better of getting better outcomes.


So, NO DISAGREEMENT from the usual suspects, I take it therefore that they agree with the above & the rest of what I said in my post!



so pinhead... when WE say there needs to be a reduction in expenditure and an increase in some taxes we are morons but when YOU say it, it is okay? 

This is why you are routinely ignored: because when you can finally get a
pseudo solution
out of you it is the same as what we are saying but without the convoluted reasoning.


A few observations Longy -
1) The Liberal DNA, particularly recently, is that Expenditure reductions simply become "across the board AUS-terity programs", instead of specific & targeted expenditure cuts.
2) Even YOU, could claim that the Election promise of reducing Corporate tax levels is an increase, IT'S A DECREASE IN TAX, NOT AN INCREASE, you moron!   


Mind , you're not on your lonesome, with Labor promising -
$Billions for a car industry, which will eventually disappear up its own ass!
Tax cuts for Northern Australia, which will achieve absolutely nothing, due to changing circumstances!

As I have said many times, I am not offering "solutions", which will restore the status quo.
Far from it, all I am doing is highlighting what is actually happening, so some people can be forearmed with that knowledge & perhaps get better outcomes, because of that knowledge!
You are the moron, who thinks nothing has, nor will it change?
But you're not on your lonesome, as both Labor & Liberals are also living in the past and all of you assume the status quo will return, WHICH SIMPLY WILL NOT HAPPEN!


But, congratulations are in order, as it seems your 4R's failed again, with your zero comprehension of what I wrote at -
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376715205/29#29

&

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376715205/45#45

&  More, much more!
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #49 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:23pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 8:03pm:
stryder wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 7:51pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 7:47pm:
stryder wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 7:25pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 7:18pm:
What are your thoughts, on the Economic Basics, Stryder?



Well were do you like start perceptions.

debt ? economic growth ? unemployment ? take your pick


Well, they can all be looked at separately, BUT they are also all connected, so take your pick, one at at time or  the combination



I dont have your varied knowledge on Economics, Im just a simpleton when it comes to it.

I dont think i can provide you with a satisfying challenge,  Smiley


This is not about the challenge, we are ALL in this, up to our eyeballs, so everyone is entitled to their input and it could just produce the X factors that may be missing!

I am simply of the opinion that I have identified some unique issues, which are impacting us & need to be addressed.

Unlike a few others here, who  should remain un-named (like Longy & Maqqa), who think they "know it all", I do not & I am happy if many others enter the discussion & impart their own opinions! 

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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #50 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:24pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 19th, 2013 at 11:17am:
stryder wrote on Aug 18th, 2013 at 8:07pm:
The liberals have stated there case that since government revenues are falling that we need to look at what we are spending and make some serious cuts
Labor on the other hand dont think so, they think whatever debt we are piling, we can handle it, lets keep spending like a teenager with gold credit card.

Whos right, whos wrong ???? Perceptions


Sorry, for the delay in responding!

Things aren't quite that straight forward, BUT in the past both arguments have been correct, given the right point in the Economic cycle and IF the timing was correct then both/either would have had a fair chance of the Economy responding in the desired way!

However, for most of the duration of the modern Economic era both types of Economic theories (Austrian & Keynesian) have always had favorable Economic conditions, as far as the major drivers were concerned.

THOSE ECONOMIC DRIVERS BEING DEMOGRAPHICS, ENERGY, TECHNOLOGY & A GOLDILOCKS CLIMATE, WITH A NET RESULT BEING THAT DEMAND STEADILY INCREASED & ACTED AS A BACKDROP, WHICH WOULD EVENTUALLY GET THE ECONOMY BACK ON GROWTH, NO MATTER WHAT THE POLITICIANS, ECONOMISTS & CENTRAL BANKERS DID OR DID NOT DO! .   

So eventually, at most times during the modern Economic era, the Politicians (both Labor or Liberal) could claim they had been RIGHT and their policies had been proven successful.


IN TRUTH, ON MOST OCCASIONS, IT WAS SIMPLE THE FAVORABLE MACRO ECONOMIC CONDITIONS REASSERTING THEIR INFLUENCE, WHICH EVENTUALLY GOT GROWTH GOING AGAIN!

Now, those favorable Macro Economic conditions have leveled off and at least 3 of them are about to go into reverse.

So, what was true, is no longer true AND WE WILL NOW FIND THAT NEITHER THE LIBERAL OR THE LABOR BASIC THEORIES WILL RETURN ECONOMIC GROWTH & THEREFORE THE STATUS QUO, "TO NORMAL", AS THOSE SAME MACRO ECONOMIC DRIVERS WILL PREVENT DEMAND FROM RETURNING, NO MATTER WHAT ACTIONS ARE TAKEN.

So, at this point in time, BOTH LABOR & LIBERAL ARE WRONG!


It is very likely, that in the short to medium term, we (Locally & Globally) will find the going pretty tough, BUT IF the pain is shared fairly by all, then the Economy MAY recover, BUT it will take a considerable amount of time!

However, IF the usual suspects try to get better outcomes for themselves & their own "constituents" & there is no similar Global actions, particularly to raise Productivity, THEN ANY RECOVERY WILL BE A LOT LONGER IN COMING, IF INDEED IT DOES ARRIVE!

Not very nice reading, I know, BUT SOMETIMES REALITY JUST ISN'T PLEASANT, AS I'M SURE MANY OF THOSE WHO WENT THRU THE GREAT DEPRESSION WOULD AGREE!

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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #51 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:26pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 20th, 2013 at 4:04pm:
crocodile wrote on Aug 20th, 2013 at 2:03pm:
Armchair_Politician wrote on Aug 20th, 2013 at 9:00am:
# wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 3:21pm:
Maqqa wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 3:19pm:
Debt under LIBs = ZERO

Debt under ALP = $300B

GFC


You've made the rather common mistake of comparing gross debt to net debt. The coalition never had gross debt below zero. The lowest gross debt was end of 2006 at around 50 bil.

Net debt was negative as claimed. If you want to compare debts then you really should either compare net with net or gross with gross. As of today, government net debt is around 180 bil.

It ended years ago. Why not blame the Great Depression too???  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Gross Debt is/was, as follows -
Date (30 June)      Gross Debt ($ millions)
2007      58,284
2008      60,462
2009      101,147
2010      147,133
2011      191,291
2012      233,976

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_national_debt

The Net Debt situation, from 1970-now can be found at the following site -
http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/myefo/html/13_appendix_d.htm
As can be seen, the Libs picked up a Net Debt on taking office in 1996, which Peaked at some $96 Billion, they then converted that into a Net Credit of $45 Billion on leaving office in 2007 ,just as the GFC was getting under way.
The last figures, on this article, shows Labor going back to a Net Debt of around $144 Billion at the end of June 2012.
It is also worth noting that Net Debt rose initially when Hawke/Keating won office in 1983. It then fell back to more usual levels, before rising again, which co-incided with the Economic slowdown of the early to mid 1990's.

It should also be noted that Hockey actually went urther than Maqqa, by claiming Zero Debt when the Libs left office & that Labor would leave a $400 Billion Debt on leaving office. Given the above, it would seem both Maqqa & Joe have used the Libs Net Debt on leaving office AND both have used the Gross Labor Debt, with Maqqa maybe using an estimate for the end of June 2014 & Joe perhaps using a forward estimate guestimate for 2017???
   
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #52 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:35pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:13pm:
percetpions only - I am happy to answer.

no, every year need not be a surplus.


at times, we have to have surpuses and every deficit should be inspected carefully.
We cannot have a deficit every year.
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #53 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 3:11pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:35pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 26th, 2013 at 1:13pm:
percetpions only - I am happy to answer.

no, every year need not be a surplus.



at times, we have to have surpuses and every deficit should be inspected carefully.
We cannot have a deficit every year.


Sorry Sprinty, I missed your first post, as I was probably too busy, CUTTING & PASTING?!

I agree, we do not need, nor could we get, even in "normal" times, a Deficit every year, nor do we need, nor could we get a Surplus every year!

I also agree, that THERE ARE TIMES, during the "normal" Economic cycle, WHEN SURPLUSES &/OR DEFICIT'S ARE ABSOLUTELY THE CORRECT THING, AT ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT TIME & THAT IT IS ALWAYS TIME FOR DUE PROCESS & TO ENSURE VALUE FOR MONEY IN OUTCOMES!

That said, I must finally add that these are "Not normal times", for reasons I have previously outlined and after building up towards these once in history circumstances for possibly up to 80 years, WE SHOULD NOT, CAN NOT, EXPECT THINGS TO RETURN TO THE STATUS QUO QUICKLY. In fact, a return to the Economic status quo,  particularly of the last 50-60 years, is very, very unlikely!

Actually, events will likely unfold over quite some time and the outcome/s will need to be equally & fairly shared OR the outcomes will likely be worse than they may otherwise have been!

Which means, both major party's (in OZ) will have to actually learn to co-operate with each other, IF we are to have any sort of acceptable outcome & that situation must also be repeated Globally!

All of which means, THE TIME/S FOR SPIN IS DEAD & THE TIME/S FOR REALITY MUST START NOW!
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #54 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 4:16pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:39am:
John S wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:31am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21st, 2013 at 11:12pm:
road building was THE STIMULUS project used to end the great depression.  you get dumber the more you post.


learn a bit of history longy it wasn't road building that was used to end the great depression it was the Second World War


Correct, WW2 AND A MASSIVE BABY BOOM THAT FOLLOWED!
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #55 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 4:18pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:02am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:50am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:39am:
John S wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:31am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21st, 2013 at 11:12pm:
road building was THE STIMULUS project used to end the great depression.  you get dumber the more you post.


learn a bit of history longy it wasn't road building that was used to end the great depression it was the Second World War


Correct, WW2 AND A MASSIVE BABY BOOM THAT FOLLOWED!


you are both wrong.  while the war did pull the world out of the depression for good what began the process was American construction of roads - mainly cement - as a stimulus program to get the masses of unemployed working again.

try reading some history people.


http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/images/djia1900s.png

The above chart disagrees with you, Longy!

But, there's nothing unusual about that, as you still have NFI!

The act is the US & Global Economy was heading down the toilet again, until the largest "stimulus program ever seen got underway, due to WW2!

...
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #56 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 4:20pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:24am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:12am:
John S wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:58am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:50am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:39am:
John S wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:31am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21st, 2013 at 11:12pm:
road building was THE STIMULUS project used to end the great depression.  you get dumber the more you post.


learn a bit of history longy it wasn't road building that was used to end the great depression it was the Second World War


Correct, WW2 AND A MASSIVE BABY BOOM THAT FOLLOWED!


you are both wrong.  while the war did pull the world out of the depression for good what began the process was American construction of roads - mainly cement - as a stimulus program to get the masses of unemployed working again.

try reading some history people.


the only reason that roads were built was for the war effort nothing more nothing less


the road building project started 5 years BEFORE WW2 and 7 years  before USA entered the war.

road building is THET standard stimulus package which of course our stupid labor govt didn't go with.


As I have said previously Longy, YOU HAVE NFI!

That is a self defeating argument!

You are saying that those packages, which "saved" the Economy, started around 1934-1936, BUT the Economy was on the ropes again, as indicated by the share market, from around 1937-1942, before the massive WW2 stimulus started having its impact around 1942.
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #57 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 4:24pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:50pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:41am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:24am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:12am:
John S wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:58am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:50am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:39am:
John S wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:31am:
longweekend58 wrote on Aug 21st, 2013 at 11:12pm:
road building was THE STIMULUS project used to end the great depression.  you get dumber the more you post.


learn a bit of history longy it wasn't road building that was used to end the great depression it was the Second World War


Correct, WW2 AND A MASSIVE BABY BOOM THAT FOLLOWED!


you are both wrong.  while the war did pull the world out of the depression for good what began the process was American construction of roads - mainly cement - as a stimulus program to get the masses of unemployed working again.

try reading some history people.


the only reason that roads were built was for the war effort nothing more nothing less


the road building project started 5 years BEFORE WW2 and 7 years  before USA entered the war.

road building is THET standard stimulus package which of course our stupid labor govt didn't go with.


As I have said previously Longy, YOU HAVE NFI!

That is a self defeating argument!

You are saying that those packages, which "saved" the Economy, started around 1934-1936, BUT the Economy was on the ropes again, as indicated by the share market, from around 1937-1942, before the massive WW2 stimulus started having its impact around 1942.


read some economics books will you just for once??  the road-building stimulus is credited with being the initiative that started the process of dragging the USA out of the intractable depression.  On one hand you support stimulus - as long as it is your version of it of course - but reject historical examples of it that were successful.


you are one complex, twisted and dopy drongo.


" Stock market returns are a leading indicator:
the stock market usually begins to decline before the economy as a whole declines
and usually begins to improve before the general economy begins to recover from a slump."


As already stated, the US DOW had started to slump again around 1937 & by 1942 it had lost over 50% of its value.

In June 1937, the Roosevelt administration cut spending and increased taxation in an attempt to balance the federal budget.

The American economy then took a sharp downturn -
Industrial production fell almost 30 per cent within a few months and production of durable goods fell even faster.
Unemployment jumped from 14.3% in 1937 to 19.0% in 1938.
Manufacturing output fell by 37% from the 1937 peak and was back to 1934 levels.

I have said, on numerous occasions, that both Austrian & Keynesian Economic fixes have often be successful in the past & I say it again now, BUT neither will work now.

However, the Great Depression was another example, similar to the current GFC, where both Austrian & Keynesian Economic fixes did not work, as intended!

First came the stimulus, which were partially effective, but drove up Debt, then came the Expenditure cuts & the Economy fell into another huge hole.

As indicated, by one of the best Economic indicators, THE SHARE MARKET, the US Economy went down hill between 1937-1942 and the following 2 charts ARE THE REASON FOR THE US ECONOMY'S SURGE AGAIN, AS FROM 1942 -



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Publicly_Held_Federal_D...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F1m_4DpIq0/Ubd8wJlUYlI/AAAAAAAAACA/bOvfvYTTqEk/s400/D...

I don't expect that you will see the similarities Longy, BUT there will be others who will!

The, as now, Stimuli's were applied, Expenditure cuts (Aus-terity) is most likely on its way & Birthrates/Population Growth had crashed prior to the Economic crash. Btw, the US Debt to GDP raio is now over 100%.

There are 2 BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE GREAT DEPRESSION & NOW -
1) ANOTHER BABY BOOM IS IMPOSSIBLE, AS WE ARE ALREADY BEYOND WHAT THE PLANET CAN SUSTAIN, PARTICULARLY IN FOOD, WATER & ENERGY!
2) ANOTHER WAR NOW, WOULD COMPLETELY DECIMATE HUMANITY, BECAUSE OUR TECHNOLOGY "HAS COME SO FAR"!

Btw Longy, You still have NFI!




...
...
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #58 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 4:26pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 11:21am:
Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:45am:
The Libs will do exactly the same as Labor - same deficit, same mistakes, same revenue forecasts, same budget tricks and spin.




You are correct, in so far as there are/will be quite a few similarities, for both Labor & Liberal, including -
Both have Similar SPIN tactics!
They are both Truth inhibited!
Both would have a "once in history", set of negative Global Economic Drivers, in the years ahead!
Neither will be able to restore the Economic status quo, via the usual Keynesian or Austrian solutions!
It is likely that both would continue to run Deficits & mounting Debt OR run the risk of dramatically worsening the Economic outcome! 
Neither has any earthly idea, what is really happening, nor do they really want to know!
Neither has the guts to implement change/s that would upset their supporters & lessen their election prospects, including getting rid of things such as Baby Bonuses, Local Councils & lowering Taxes!

That said, we (the Public) must take some responsibility, both here & overseas, for allowing this situation to develop, over a considerable amount of time.

We need to develop some "intestinal fortitude" of our own!
We need to stop simply following the past & our own "beliefs/prejudices"!!
We need to look to what is actually happening now, what are the likely future consequences/outcomes of the actions/inactions that we are now allowing/enforcing on our Pollies AND WE NEED TO START THE CHANGE PROCESS, NOW!!!   

I would suggest that start be made, BY KICKING OUT EVERY INCUMBENT & THEREBY SENDING THE ESTABLISHMENT A MESSAGE, THAT CHANGE MUST START NOW!

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perceptions_now
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Re: Political SPIN & Reality
Reply #59 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 4:27pm
 
# wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 11:32am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 11:21am:
Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:45am:
The Libs will do exactly the same as Labor - same deficit, same mistakes, same revenue forecasts, same budget tricks and spin.




You are correct, in so far as there are/will be quite a few similarities, for both Labor & Liberal, including -
Both have Similar SPIN tactics!
They are both Truth inhibited!
Both would have a "once in history", set of negative Global Economic Drivers, in the years ahead!
Neither will be able to restore the Economic status quo, via the usual Keynesian or Austrian solutions!
It is likely that both would continue to run Deficits & mounting Debt OR run the risk of dramatically worsening the Economic outcome! 
Neither has any earthly idea, what is really happening, nor do they really want to know!
Neither has the guts to implement change/s that would upset their supporters & lessen their election prospects, including getting rid of things such as Baby Bonuses, Local Councils & lowering Taxes!

That said, we (the Public) must take some responsibility, both here & overseas, for allowing this situation to develop, over a considerable amount of time.

We need to develop some "intestinal fortitude" of our own!
We need to stop simply following the past & our own "beliefs/prejudices"!!
We need to look to what is actually happening now, what are the likely future consequences/outcomes of the actions/inactions that we are now allowing/enforcing on our Pollies AND WE NEED TO START THE CHANGE PROCESS, NOW!!!   

I would suggest that start be made, BY KICKING OUT EVERY INCUMBENT & THEREBY SENDING THE ESTABLISHMENT A MESSAGE, THAT CHANGE MUST START NOW!


Agreed. Unfortunately politicians, aided and abetted by media, have become far too adept at manipulating the herd. The herd decides who will govern.

It seems we're headed for a Murdoch government.
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