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Islam and irony (Read 5682 times)
Soren
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Islam and irony
Aug 29th, 2013 at 8:40pm
 
A large crowd of Muslims in Afghanistan got so excited, whilst protesting against the Koran burning Pastor from Florida, that they ended up setting light to several buildings including a girls’ school and some shops.

More Qurans were burned in the course of their protests than by Terry Jones. The demonstrations, which started peacefully, quickly turned violent, killing at least nine people and injuring scores in Kandahar City alone. And as protesters vandalized a girls’ school and set fire to shops, Qurans also inadvertently went up in flames. “If they burn a shop, there is a Quran in every shop, so this is a big problem,” says Azizullah Aziz, a perfume and soap salesman in Kandahar City. “People don’t know how to protest.”




Is Islam capable of an ironic view of itself? Or was Khomeini right hen he said that there are no jokes in Islam.



The long answer:
Quote:
Question
It is not allowed in Islam to lie, even when joking. But does it also count as a lie if what the person is saying is simply sarcastic, and the other person knows that it is just mean to be that way. For example, if I am writing something down and someone looks at me and asks: "Are you writing?", and I say: "No, I am playing football." In these cases it is just sarcasm and it is too obvious that it is not true. Please help me out with this one, as so many of us indulge into such minor sarcastic jokes everyday.
Answered by
the Fatwa Department Research Committee - chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî
Deliberate lies and falsehoods must not be employed as a means to make people laugh.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Woe to the person who gives a speech to people and lies to make them laugh. Woe to him, woe to him.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4990), Sunan al-Tirmidhî (2315), and Sunan al-Dârimî (2702)]

What you are asking about are sarcasm and irony - rhetorical devices in the language which communicate meanings that are clearly understood from their contexts.

Sarcasm is to say something with an underlying insulting or caustic implication. Irony is a form of expression in which an understood implicit meaning is concealed or contradicted by the explicit meaning of the expression. Sarcasm is often used in conjunction with irony. Both of these modes of speech are often conveyed with a particular vocal intonation when spoken and are sometimes rendered with italics when written, like in: “Great! That’s all I need!” or “Oh, very funny”.

What matters is the honesty of the meaning that is being conveyed by the communication, not the literal implications of the words.

For instance, in the example that you give in your question, a person is writing something down. The onlooker can see this, but asks: "Are you writings something?"

The person who is writing responds to the onlooker’s question by saying: “No, I am playing football.”

What he means is: “Of course I am writing, and it is silly of you to ask.” This is the meaning that is communicated and understood.

In English, there are some phrases that are always ironic. Consider when a person says: “Big deal” or “Wise guy”.

Therefore, ironic and sarcastic statements are not lies, any more than figurative speech is a lie. "He was a lion on the football field" is a figurative statement, not a lie - though certainly the football payer is not a great cat.

In the same way, irony and sarcasm are recognized modes of speech which convey an intended meaning understood by both the speaker and the listener.

Irony and sarcasm are therefore quite different than a joke that is a deliberate lie, where the teller of the joke means to communicate a falsehood. Whether or not the listener is aware that it is a lie, what matters is that the speaker fully intends to communicate by what he says a meaning that is false, with the intention of provoking laughter on account of that falsehood.

And Allah knows best.

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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #1 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 9:35pm
 
Soren wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 8:40pm:
A large crowd of Muslims in Afghanistan got so excited, whilst protesting against the Koran burning Pastor from Florida, that they ended up setting light to several buildings including a girls’ school and some shops.

More Qurans were burned in the course of their protests than by Terry Jones. The demonstrations, which started peacefully, quickly turned violent, killing at least nine people and injuring scores in Kandahar City alone. And as protesters vandalized a girls’ school and set fire to shops, Qurans also inadvertently went up in flames. “If they burn a shop, there is a Quran in every shop, so this is a big problem,” says Azizullah Aziz, a perfume and soap salesman in Kandahar City. “People don’t know how to protest.”


That is actually pretty funny - in a really buggered up sort of way.

Coincidence that Afghanistan was the one and only place in all of muslimania that caused a stir in response to the bible burning? I don't think so.

Soren wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 8:40pm:
It is not allowed in Islam to lie, even when joking.


Obviously a lie. Don't make yadda tell you to google taqiyya again.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #2 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 9:52pm
 
Soren wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 8:40pm:
It is not allowed in Islam to lie, even when joking.


Obviously a lie. Don't make yadda tell you to google taqiyya again. [/quote]



So Islam Today is posting lies.
http://en.islamtoday.net/quesshow-7-835.htm

You should declare a fatwah, no?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #3 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 11:32pm
 
You should get Yadda on to it. I'm sure he has the authority to issue fatwas no?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #4 - Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:51am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 11:32pm:
You should get Yadda on to it. I'm sure he has the authority to issue fatwas no?


That’s right. Y’s a big fan of the fatwa. Irony too.

/Sarc off.
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Soren
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #5 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:29pm
 
Free Speech Wars: The Blasphemy Fashion Police
by Douglas Murray
February 4, 2014 at 4:00 am


Meet the latest victim of the "Cartoon Wars": Maajid Nawaz, head of the counter-extremism Quilliam Foundation and prospective parliamentary candidate for the Liberal Democrat party. He was on a BBC program discussing free speech and the right to offend, when two students from a London Atheists and Secular Society were present. They were wearing T-shirts with a cartoon strip on them called "Jesus and Mo." The wearing of such T-shirts has become a matter of principle for them since students manning the stall of the Atheists and Secularists society at the London School of Economics freshers' fair last October were asked either to cover their T-shirts up or be physically removed. No prizes for guessing who complained about the T-shirts, but it was not the LSE Christian Society.

This local infringement on freedom of speech caused some embarrassment for the LSE, and the debate over the dreaded T-shirts of hate rumbled on until December when the university authorities apologized for becoming the blasphemy fashion police.

But as everybody who remembers the Danish cartoons affair will remember, these things are never contained. Indeed so fevered is this debate that there are endless Hydra-headed spin-offs each time the cartoon wars crops up. Each time someone tries to chop its metaphorical head off, another cartoon affair pops up somewhere else.

In any event, this time the spin-off was the BBC Sunday morning discussion show on which the students turned up, again with their T-shirts. The BBC refused to show the T-shirts and some artful filming protected the audience from the full horror of having to see a stick-figure called "Mo" saying "How ya doin?" to Jesus, who is saying "Hey."

...
This "Jesus and Mo" image, featured on t-shirts and in comic strips, is the source of controversy at the BBC and the London School of Economics. (Image source: jesusandmo.net)
During the debate, a number of Muslims pointed out how offensive they found this outrageous image, and how against the feelings of all Muslims it was. And Nawaz was the only one to point out that he, as a Muslim, did not find this offensive at all. Rightly amazed at the BBC's genuflection to a new blasphemy law, when the program had finished, he sent the cartoon out to his twitter followers with a message saying that he thought his God was bigger than to find offense at something like this.

Cue the latest deluge of utter souped-up outrage. Prominent "moderate Muslims" immediately started to pass word around that a great offense had been committed. All around one could hear the sound of old scores being settled. One such figure – who runs an outfit called the "Ramadhan Foundation" announced that he was going to notify not just all Muslim groups but also Islamic countries of the "offense." Subsequently Nawaz began to receive serious death-threats. So serious have they become, in fact, that the UK police appear to have advised him to keep his head down and not make public appearances for a while.

Then emerged the backlash to the backlash. The same figures who had appeared to organize (in the words of one BBC journalist) a lynch-mob against Nawaz complained that they themselves had also been subject to death threats. In some instances this may be true. Two of those who whipped up outrage against Nawaz for tweeting out the cartoon of "Jesus and Mo" were recently on a hit-list of British targets issued by the terrorist group Al-Shabaab. Their offense, in the eyes of Al-Shabaab, was that they had spoken out against the decapitation of Drummer Lee Rigby by two jihadist maniacs in London last year.

All of which is certainly a new riff, but it is on an old tune. Round and round we go in the cartoon wars. And all the time, the underlying problem goes unaddressed. When Nawaz and I debated whether Islam is a "religion of peace" in New York,
the scales-falling-from-eyes moment from the audience occurred when it became clear that everybody on all sides of the debate – Muslim and non-Muslim, believers that Islam is a religion of peace and those who believe that it is not – were all the subject to some degree of threat to their lives.


It is the same in the latest round of the cartoon wars. Nawaz rightly said he was not offended by a cartoon. But a bunch of individuals thought he should be and helped whip up a storm against him. In their defense, they then pointed out that their lives were in danger too. All of which reminds us, is anyone ever going to concentrate on what the problem is here?
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4154/free-speech-blasphemy
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Stratos
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #6 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:59pm
 
I always thought it was quite ironic that the koran was written down by someone who was apparently illiterate.
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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Stratos
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #7 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 9:01pm
 
i remember a friend of mine used to work at a Christian bookshop, apparently the things that went missing the most were the WWJD bracelets.
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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freediver
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #8 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:00pm
 
...
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #9 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:01pm
 
Stratos wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:59pm:
I always thought it was quite ironic that the koran was written down by someone who was apparently illiterate.


Except he didn't write it down  Wink
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Stratos
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #10 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:02pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:01pm:
Stratos wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:59pm:
I always thought it was quite ironic that the koran was written down by someone who was apparently illiterate.


Except he didn't write it down  Wink


What's the story there then?
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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Yadda
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #11 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:03pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 8:29pm:

....is anyone ever going to concentrate on what the problem is here?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4154/free-speech-blasphemy



Soren,

I'm a visitor from another planet.

You human beings are very strange creatures.



What is the problem that is presently plaguing all of you 'Earthlings' ?

What is the problem ?

If i turn on the TV news, or tune into a current affairs program, will i then see this nebulous 'problem' which afflicts humanity, actually named and identified ?







+++





IN CONTRAST -
HERE IS SOME DELICIOUSLY FUNNY SATIRE,
WHICH LAMPOONS OUR 'POLITICALLY CORRECT' MEDIA,
AND WHICH RIDICULES THE CREDIBILITY OF MANY SO-CALLED TERRORISM 'EXPERTS'.


Refusing to Name the Enemy in the War on Terror
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpM8qk3t52A

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Datalife
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #12 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:00pm:


LOL, that bloke has to be taking the piss.   Grin Grin
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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #13 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:06pm
 
Stratos wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:02pm:
What's the story there then?


Revelation was narrated to him by the Archangel Gabriel, and he relayed it to his followers by mouth - some of them memorized it, and others wrote it down
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Datalife
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Re: Islam and irony
Reply #14 - Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:09pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:06pm:
Revelation was narrated to him by the Archangel Gabriel, and he relayed it to his followers by mouth - some of them memorized it, and others wrote it down


That's the way, nothing ridiculous about that at all.
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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

Kevin Rudd on 2GB, July 12, 2007
 
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