Australian Politics Forum - Senate voting is a farce

longweekend58

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #30 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:59am

viewpoint wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:48am:

If Arthur Sinodinos loses out to Pauline Hanson because of preferences, then Senate voting is most definitely a farce!

When Adam Bandt loses his seat to labor despite having a health primary vote lead, it too will be a farce.

but I will laugh and laugh and laugh at watching a minor party executed by the very voting system that usually gives them an unhealthy level of influence.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #31 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 12:28pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:40am:

Bam wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:24am:

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:08am:

JC Denton wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 9:32am:

i dont understand the voting sheet so i just draw a dick on it

That's really silly. Only the vote counters see it but none of the politicians.
And the vote counters don't care either way. Whatever you draw or write or leave it blank - it's just a donkey vote.

Incorrect. Spoiling the ballot paper in these ways is an informal vote. The donkey vote is a valid vote where the boxes are simply numbered in the same order they appear on the ballot paper.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4] etc.
Or it can be from the bottom.

Because a few percent of the voters do vote this way, having the top or bottom position on the paper is highly prized.

some analysts have suggested that donkey voters are more liked to be lower socio-economic groups and therefore more likely to be labor supporters. The donkey-voter will therefore disadvantage the labor candidate unless they get the #1 position.

Conjecture built on speculation doesn't make it true, and this is largely irrelevant in the context of Senate voting where a simple "1" in one box above the line is all it takes to cast a valid vote. About 90% to 95% of people vote above the line (AEC) with a tendency for more to do so in states with more below-the-line candidates.

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longweekend58

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #32 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 12:58pm

Bam wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 12:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:40am:

Bam wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:24am:

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:08am:

JC Denton wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 9:32am:

i dont understand the voting sheet so i just draw a dick on it

That's really silly. Only the vote counters see it but none of the politicians.
And the vote counters don't care either way. Whatever you draw or write or leave it blank - it's just a donkey vote.

Incorrect. Spoiling the ballot paper in these ways is an informal vote. The donkey vote is a valid vote where the boxes are simply numbered in the same order they appear on the ballot paper.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4] etc.
Or it can be from the bottom.

Because a few percent of the voters do vote this way, having the top or bottom position on the paper is highly prized.

some analysts have suggested that donkey voters are more liked to be lower socio-economic groups and therefore more likely to be labor supporters. The donkey-voter will therefore disadvantage the labor candidate unless they get the #1 position.

Conjecture built on speculation doesn't make it true, and this is largely irrelevant in the context of Senate voting where a simple "1" in one box above the line is all it takes to cast a valid vote. About 90% to 95% of people vote above the line (AEC) with a tendency for more to do so in states with more below-the-line candidates.

I didn't say it was relevant, only that it is interesting. And conjecture based on detailed research also does not make it implicitly wrong. It was merely an observation that some researchers considered the donkey vote to be more harmful to the labor party because donkey voters tend to be from lower socio-economic levels.

I don't know what you do to make senate voting simpler although I do like the idea of voting for parties rather than candidates. The only caveat is that the parties would be required to nominate their candidates in advance and not be able to change them afterwards. That would be a backdoor method of electing a hated and unelectable candidate.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #33 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 1:05pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:37am:

Bam wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 9:28am:

Quote:

My concern is that the farce of the 2013 Senate election may produce the wrong sort of change, where the existing players get together and simply make it impossible for the little parties to grow or get elected by introducing threshold quotas.

(Without checking, I think a threshold quota is a minimum percentage of the vote that a party or candidate can receive to be eligible to be elected. In the NZ parliament which has proportional representation, the threshold is four percent.)

what is inherently wrong with a threshold quota? we have seen examples (Fielding for example) where a senator gets elected on little more than his family and friends votes. I don't see a threshold as inherently bad although as usual, the devil is in the details.

A threshold quota is unnecessary with a preferential voting system. Exclusion thresholds are used in first-past-the-post voting systems. They do not work as well with preferential voting.

Once the candidates with a quota are elected, the remaining candidates would be excluded starting with the candidate with the fewest votes. This applies even without preferential voting. If there's no ticket voting (which we have now), this will by nature give the same result much of the time as the artifice of arbitrary thresholds for exclusion.

If there was an arbitrary threshold, there is also the possibility that none of the remaining candidates has enough of a surplus to remain in the count. If the threshold is 1/7 (14.29%) and there was a threshold of 1/28 (3.57%), it only takes a number of remaining candidates that is one greater than this ratio (28/7 + 1 = 5 here) for the possibility to exist that none of them have a ratio.

If we have full above-the-line preferential voting, microparties would have to campaign for votes. They would not have the resources to hand out HTV cards at every polling place so there would be fewer of them.

Another factor to consider is that the election of minor parties like FFP or DLP only occurs rarely. Only for the final seat in each state does a candidate from a minor party have a chance of winning. Only twice has a minor party candidate won a Senate seat in 48 Senate contests with six-seat Senate contests (since 1990), both in Victoria. Fielding of FFP won in 2004 and Madigan from the DLP won in 2010.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #34 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 1:22pm What really slows things down for vote counters and scrutineers is when people number all the boxes, and one or two of the numbers are difficult to read. They waste a lot of time trying to decide if its informal or not. Some 7's look like 1's. Some 4's look like 9's etc.
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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #35 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 7:15pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 12:58pm:

I don't know what you do to make senate voting simpler although I do like the idea of voting for parties rather than candidates. The only caveat is that the parties would be required to nominate their candidates in advance and not be able to change them afterwards. That would be a backdoor method of electing a hated and unelectable candidate.

I've noticed that some parties (ALP, Greens, Australian Democrats) nominate up to six candidates, even though there is no way all would be elected. I suspect this is so the list does double duty of a party list of backup candidates to fill casual vacancies. The Coalition also do it but not in all states.

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longweekend58

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #36 - Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 7:40pm

Bam wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 7:15pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 12:58pm:

I don't know what you do to make senate voting simpler although I do like the idea of voting for parties rather than candidates. The only caveat is that the parties would be required to nominate their candidates in advance and not be able to change them afterwards. That would be a backdoor method of electing a hated and unelectable candidate.

I've noticed that some parties (ALP, Greens, Australian Democrats) nominate up to six candidates, even though there is no way all would be elected. I suspect this is so the list does double duty of a party list of backup candidates to fill casual vacancies. The Coalition also do it but not in all states.

How is that any different from the other 94 losing candidates only 2 or 3 of which were ever in the hunt?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #37 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:32pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

Bam wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

The problem here is that most people who vote above the line don't actually know to whom they are giving their second preferences. The voting tickets for the parties are the outcomes of negotiations amongst the faceless people of the parties, and the voting tickets are not easily available at the polling place ?

What are you talking about?

Its your responsibility to FIND OUT - its all on the web site and in your letter box prior to the actual voting day.
...

Is that a realistic expectation? I've just taken a look at the list of NSW senate candidates; it looks like I have 43 parties, plus independents. 110 candidates in all.

Presumably, you have the necessary information to hand. I certainly haven't been provided with it. Enlighten me.

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longweekend58

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #38 - Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:40pm

# wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:32pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

Bam wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

The problem here is that most people who vote above the line don't actually know to whom they are giving their second preferences. The voting tickets for the parties are the outcomes of negotiations amongst the faceless people of the parties, and the voting tickets are not easily available at the polling place ?

What are you talking about?

Its your responsibility to FIND OUT - its all on the web site and in your letter box prior to the actual voting day.
...

Is that a realistic expectation? I've just taken a look at the list of NSW senate candidates; it looks like I have 43 parties, plus independents. 110 candidates in all.

Presumably, you have the necessary information to hand. I certainly haven't been provided with it. Enlighten me.

Which is why I support Optional Preferential Voting. you find out about the handful you care for and preference then accordingly and forget the rest.

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#

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #39 - Sep 5^th, 2013 at 3:06pm

43 parties, two unnamed groups, plus four independents. I can't realistically get a decent grasp of all that. For the first time in my life, I'll have to vote above the line. From what I've seen, the Pirate Party looks the go for me.

I'd rather see parties answer multiple-choice questions on issues of the day, so we have a realistic chance of ranking them according to our own preferences. It's futile trying to figure out what they're really on about from a bunch of weasel words in their platforms.

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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #40 - Sep 5^th, 2013 at 3:51pm

# wrote on Sep 5^th, 2013 at 3:06pm:

I'd rather see parties answer multiple-choice questions on issues of the day, so we have a realistic chance of ranking them according to our own preferences. It's futile trying to figure out what they're really on about from a bunch of weasel words in their platforms.

A little like 30 questions of Vote Compass, but across more parties and perhaps with more questions (I would have 50). Imagine if it then gave a ranked list of parties, sorted by score, that you can then use to rank the parties in order of voting preference. Sounds like an interesting idea.

But that would be policy-based, and that's not what politics is all about.

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#

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #41 - Sep 5^th, 2013 at 9:08pm

Bam wrote on Sep 5^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

...
But that would be policy-based, and that's not what politics is all about.

I do wonder about all those micro-parties. Are they dinkum or just intended to confuse? It certainly worked on me!

You're right though. It would probably end up a lot like one of those online matchmaking services. Both sides fill in their questionnaire and the software picks the best match.

My problem is that I came out to the Left of the Greens on Vote Compass. Maybe I don't have a match. Matchless!

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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #42 - Sep 6^th, 2013 at 9:35am

# wrote on Sep 5^th, 2013 at 9:08pm:

Bam wrote on Sep 5^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

...
But that would be policy-based, and that's not what politics is all about.

I do wonder about all those micro-parties. Are they dinkum or just intended to confuse? It certainly worked on me!

Many of these parties exist for the sole purpose of harvesting preferences from above-the-line voters. One of them is known as the Alliance. They are puppet parties of Family First.

Quote:

You're right though. It would probably end up a lot like one of those online matchmaking services. Both sides fill in their questionnaire and the software picks the best match.

It would need a disclaimer, along the lines of being a guide and to encourage voters to make up their own minds. It could serve as an effective starting point to indicate parties that are worthy of further policy investigation.

Quote:

My problem is that I came out to the Left of the Greens on Vote Compass. Maybe I don't have a match. Matchless!

Vote Compass only had three parties represented and does not have a sufficiently broad coverage of policy areas in its questionnaire.

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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #43 - Sep 7^th, 2013 at 12:31am

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 11:37am:

what is inherently wrong with a threshold quota? we have seen examples (Fielding for example) where a senator gets elected on little more than his family and friends votes. I don't see a threshold as inherently bad although as usual, the devil is in the details.

Just a small point with the threshold quota: the Nationals typically get only about four per cent of the vote.

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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #44 - Sep 7^th, 2013 at 12:36am

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

# wrote on Sep 4^th, 2013 at 12:32pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

Bam wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

The problem here is that most people who vote above the line don't actually know to whom they are giving their second preferences. The voting tickets for the parties are the outcomes of negotiations amongst the faceless people of the parties, and the voting tickets are not easily available at the polling place ?

What are you talking about?

Its your responsibility to FIND OUT - its all on the web site and in your letter box prior to the actual voting day.
...

Is that a realistic expectation? I've just taken a look at the list of NSW senate candidates; it looks like I have 43 parties, plus independents. 110 candidates in all.

Presumably, you have the necessary information to hand. I certainly haven't been provided with it. Enlighten me.

Which is why I support Optional Preferential Voting. you find out about the handful you care for and preference then accordingly and forget the rest.

I'm considering it too. If we could vote for parties above the line with as many numbers as we want, it would make Senate voting better. I expect this election to elect another minor party candidate, perhaps even two (not counting Xenophon). Watch Queensland and Victoria.

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