Australian Politics Forum - Senate voting is a farce

Bam

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Senate voting is a farce
Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:32am

Senate voting has become rather farcical. At present, the options are:

Place the number "1" in a single box above the line.
Number every single box below the line.

Because numbering every box below the line is quite time-consuming - this election up to 110 numbers are required in some states - about 95% of all voters choose to vote above the line.

The problem here is that most people who vote above the line don't actually know to whom they are giving their second preferences. The voting tickets for the parties are the outcomes of negotiations amongst the faceless people of the parties, and the voting tickets are not easily available at the polling place for Federal elections (at least not without having to ask someone). Most people don't bother to examine the Senate ticket before voting above the line. Thus, our Senate voting is largely in the hands of the various parties.

We need some changes to Senate voting, so that the voters can cast a valid vote for whom they want more easily without having to number every single box below the line.

Here are my ideas for improving Senate voting.

All group voting tickets should be displayed at every polling booth, or otherwise displayed in such a way as to be readily and discreetly accessible. Discretion is important to maintain the secrecy of the ballot.
It should be possible to number as many boxes above the line as one wants. The "1" indicates the party ticket that is to be followed for blank boxes above the line, but any other boxes that are numbered above the line specifically override the party ticket. (The numbers are consecutive numbers starting from 1.)
It should not be necessary to number all of the boxes below the line either. As long as there's at least as many boxes numbered as there are senate vacancies, the vote should be valid. What can happen here is that the vote can be exhausted when all of the numbered candidates are either elected or excluded, but that is not an issue. Indeed, this is preferable - your vote would no longer be used to elect a candidate that you really didn't want to elect, such as the one that you numbered 79 (out of 110) on the ballot paper. (Again, the numbers are consecutive numbers starting from 1.)

There is one additional change that is needed:

Change the layout of Senate ballot papers so that "above the line" can include multiple rows. This small but important change is needed so that Senate ballots do not need to be printed in an 8-point font. At present such ridiculously small fonts are needed because there can only be one line on a Senate ballot, this line can be quite long with lots of parties, and there is a technical limit to the length of the Senate ballot paper.

I think these changes would improve Senate voting greatly. It would take Senate voting out of the hands of the various parties and put it back in the hands of the people, where it belongs, with only modest changes to the existing voting system.

What are your thoughts on Senate voting?

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #1 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:40am

Bam wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

The problem here is that most people who vote above the line don't actually know to whom they are giving their second preferences. The voting tickets for the parties are the outcomes of negotiations amongst the faceless people of the parties, and the voting tickets are not easily available at the polling place ?

What are you talking about?

Its your responsibility to FIND OUT - its all on the web site and in your letter box prior to the actual voting day.

You vote once every 3 years in federal elections and you cant be bothered writing 100 numbers down? Is that what you are saying?

How long does it take to write 100 numbers in boxes? 3 or 4 minutes?

If you want to distribute preferences YOUR WAY, then spend a few minutes doing it.

If you want another party to do it for you then inform yourself of their preference intentions.

Everything comes back to the voter

If a voter wishes to cast a donkey vote, ill informed vote or puppet vote then that is their choice on polling day.

What I suggest you do is register for a postal vote to be sent to your home. You then can have up to a few weeks to fill in the two ballot papers

And stop complaining about one the only democratic responsibilities that you have in this country

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freediver

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #2 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:54am

Group voting tickets are available online prior to the election and probably are available at the polling booth also. Given the amount of information in them if you leave it till then it is too late really.

I support options for multiple above the line votes, so long as it does not involve votes being discarded. For example, you could number ever box above the line. Or you could number some, and when your options run out it reverts to the preferences of your #1 choice.

However I suspect that would make things too complicated and lead to people's vote ending where they did not intend.

Only placing as many numbers as there are vacancies makes no sense at all. You could pick any arbitrary number. Are you suggesting there is something rational behind the choice of 6?

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #3 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 12:00pm Optional preferential voting would make voting below the line less onerous and therefore more likely to be done.
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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #4 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 1:54pm

I have already voted.

I voted below the line, there are 82 candidates in Qld.

Number 1....Socialist Equality

Number 82.....Family First

It didn't take all that long to google the ones that I was unfamiliar with. They usually have about six main topics/policies that they stand for, you can tell straight away if they'll be your first choice, in the middle or at the end.

It's easy and more people should take the time to do it.

You can then fill out your form online and print it to take along on voting day.

How to vote card for electing senators

http://senate.io/

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #5 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 2:08pm Just get rid of the Senate. It's "unrepresentative swill" anyway.
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #6 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 5:15pm Swagman wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 2:08pm: Just get rid of the Senate. It's "unrepresentative swill" anyway. the only state without an upper house is QLD. there is your perfect proof for why such things are needed. Joh would not have become the corrupt dictator he was with an upper hosue to keep him in check,
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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #7 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 8:22pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

Bam wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

The problem here is that most people who vote above the line don't actually know to whom they are giving their second preferences. The voting tickets for the parties are the outcomes of negotiations amongst the faceless people of the parties, and the voting tickets are not easily available at the polling place ?

What are you talking about?

Its your responsibility to FIND OUT - its all on the web site and in your letter box prior to the actual voting day.

I have never seen a complete list of every registered party's senate preferences ever delivered to my letter box. Furthermore, with 36 parties there would be over 50 preferences lists to go through, with over 100 options in each. Who really wants to look through all of that just because the system is broken?

Why defend the current system? It has flaws. Why blame the voter when the system has problems?

Quote:

You vote once every 3 years in federal elections and you cant be bothered writing 100 numbers down? Is that what you are saying?

How long does it take to write 100 numbers in boxes? 3 or 4 minutes?

These numbers have to be numbered correctly in accordance with the law or else the senate vote is not valid. I understand that a few sequencing errors are allowed before the vote is declared to be informal. However, just to make sure it does take quite a while to number all of those boxes and make sure that every consecutive integer from 1 to 110 (or whatever the maximum is) appears exactly once.

Quote:

If you want to distribute preferences YOUR WAY, then spend a few minutes doing it.

So why defend the current system? Again, you're blaming the voter here.

Quote:

If you want another party to do it for you then inform yourself of their preference intentions.

So why can't we do that by voting ABOVE the line as well? I suggested as much in my OP.

Quote:

And stop complaining about one the only democratic responsibilities that you have in this country

I have every right to complain about a system that does not work as well as it should, and I won't stop pointing out the flaws just because you say I should.

Antony Green, the ABC's resident psephologist, happens to agree with me on the need to fix the Senate voting system. In an interview on the 29th, he spent some time discussing the preference flows that would allow Pauline Hanson to be elected on preference flows with a 2% primary vote.

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Bam

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #8 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 8:29pm

freediver wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:54am:

Group voting tickets are available online prior to the election and probably are available at the polling booth also. Given the amount of information in them if you leave it till then it is too late really.

I support options for multiple above the line votes, so long as it does not involve votes being discarded. For example, you could number ever box above the line. Or you could number some, and when your options run out it reverts to the preferences of your #1 choice.

Indeed, this is what I wrote for above the line voting in my OP. I think it would have wide support in the community. It would probably take an election at which multiple micro-party candidates were elected to compel the politicians to think more carefully about the workings of Federal Senate elections.

Quote:

However I suspect that would make things too complicated and lead to people's vote ending where they did not intend.

If they numbered all of the boxes - either above the line or below - this would not be a problem.

Quote:

Only placing as many numbers as there are vacancies makes no sense at all. You could pick any arbitrary number. Are you suggesting there is something rational behind the choice of 6?

There are six vacancies, so choose at least six candidates. It's basically optional preferential voting. Of course, we need not have this. We haven't had optional preferential voting at Federal elections for many years.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #9 - Aug 30^th, 2013 at 9:31pm Have we ever had OPV in federal elections? One problem with ranking above the line is that under the current system, not every candidate has a ticket and a box above the line. I think it is because they are single independent candidates.
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The_Barnacle

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Re: Senate voting is a farce
Reply #10 - Sep 1^st, 2013 at 11:42am

Bam wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 8:22pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

Bam wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

The problem here is that most people who vote above the line don't actually know to whom they are giving their second preferences. The voting tickets for the parties are the outcomes of negotiations amongst the faceless people of the parties, and the voting tickets are not easily available at the polling place ?

What are you talking about?

Its your responsibility to FIND OUT - its all on the web site and in your letter box prior to the actual voting day.

I have never seen a complete list of every registered party's senate preferences ever delivered to my letter box. Furthermore, with 36 parties there would be over 50 preferences lists to go through, with over 100 options in each. Who really wants to look through all of that just because the system is broken?

Why defend the current system? It has flaws. Why blame the voter when the system has problems?

I agree Bam
Your average punter is not going to spend their time numbering every box. As a result the voters preferences are not chosen by the voter and this is undemocratic.

Part of the responsibility of a democracy is to make it easy to get the voters wishes. It is a cop out to suggest that because a voter isn't prepared to individually number over 100 boxes their preferences should be decided for them

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Kat Gold Member Offline Socialism IS the answer. Posts: 17709 Everywhere and no-where Gender:	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #11 - Sep 1^st, 2013 at 11:48am I always vote below the line. This election will be no different in that respect.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #12 - Sep 1^st, 2013 at 12:27pm I am working on my above the line voting guide for this election at the moment. Here is one I prepared earlier: http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/senate-group-voting-tickets-above-line...
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #13 - Sep 1^st, 2013 at 1:01pm the complexity is the 100 candidates. should there not be some kind of vetting system perhaps? If not the only option for the vast majority of people is ABOVE THE LINE or optional preferential voting so you can vote for say the first 10.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: Senate voting is a farce Reply #14 - Sep 1^st, 2013 at 1:03pm Given that six spots are up for grabs, it is only natural that there are a lot of candidates. And there is a vetting process. You have to meet certain requirements before getting your name on the ballot paper.
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