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Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? (Read 10029 times)
Ajax
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #90 - Sep 25th, 2013 at 8:38pm
 
muso wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 8:04am:
If you're measuring an altitude, the actual figure you get may be off by =/- 25mm. OK?

However the stability or precision of that reading is better than 1mm.

Let's take some hypothetical readings in mm. The dotted lines represent the other digits of a very large number. In each case, that number is the same. I know that this is not literally correct, but I'm just trying to convey the concept of precision.

..................156.7 mm
..................156.3 mm
..................156.5 mm
..................156.2 mm
..................156.5 mm
..................156.4 mm
..................156.6 mm
..................156.7 mm
..................156.3 mm
..................156.5 mm

OK, you can see that it's a stable reading, but the absolute value could be out as much as 25mm either side.

If you are measuring the change in value from year to year, then that absolute value doesn't matter. You can still measure the change from year to year with a confidence of better than 1mm.

That's what's meant by precision.


Thank God we have engineers to build things......??????
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #91 - Sep 25th, 2013 at 8:48pm
 
Ajax, I've come to the conclusion that you are totally incapable of understanding very basic concepts. You go on believing exactly what you want to believe.

It is of course faith based, because you lack any basic ability to understand the difference between science and mythology.  You are easily conned by shallow arguments, and even if the fallacies and underlying fallacious methodologies are demonstrated, you continue to believe.

You are one of the true faithful.

Ego te absolvo.
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Ajax
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #92 - Sep 25th, 2013 at 8:53pm
 
muso wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 8:48pm:
Ajax, I've come to the conclusion that you are totally incapable of understanding very basic concepts. You go on believing exactly what you want to believe.

It is of course faith based, because you lack any basic ability to understand the difference between science and mythology.  You are easily conned by shallow arguments, and even if the fallacies and underlying fallacious methodologies are demonstrated, you continue to believe.

You are one of the true faithful.

Ego te absolvo.


Dude when you tell me that a measurement eg. 156.7mm can have an accuracy of +-25mm (50mm drift).

Then tell me that the precision of that next few measurements can be within +-1mm of the original measurement 156.7mm.

I say thank God we have engineers to build things....!!!!!
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« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2013 at 9:08pm by Ajax »  

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #93 - Sep 25th, 2013 at 9:02pm
 
Ajax wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 8:53pm:
muso wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 8:48pm:
Ajax, I've come to the conclusion that you are totally incapable of understanding very basic concepts. You go on believing exactly what you want to believe.

It is of course faith based, because you lack any basic ability to understand the difference between science and mythology.  You are easily conned by shallow arguments, and even if the fallacies and underlying fallacious methodologies are demonstrated, you continue to believe.

You are one of the true faithful.

Ego te absolvo.


Dude when you tell me that a measurement eg. 156.7mm can have an accuracy of +-25mm (50mm drift).


Are you totally thick? The drift (precision) is 1mm. Accuracy and Precision are totally different things.
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Ajax
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #94 - Sep 25th, 2013 at 9:09pm
 
muso wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 9:02pm:
Are you totally thick? The drift (precision) is 1mm. Accuracy and Precision are totally different things.


Ditto my previous post.......!!!!!!

Quote:
Dude when you tell me that a measurement eg. 156.7mm can have an accuracy of +-25mm (50mm drift).

Then tell me that the precision of that next few measurements can be within +-1mm of the original measurement 156.7mm.

I say thank God we have engineers to build things....!!!!!
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #95 - Sep 25th, 2013 at 9:50pm
 
OK, one last attempt. I have a hiking GPS. It's not particularly accurate, unless you calibrate it at mean sea level, but it's very precise.

When I'm climbing, I can see that I have ascended say 501 metres, but the absolute altitude is not accurate to 1 metre. It's precise enough to show that I have ascended even 1 metre, but it might only be accurate to 25 metres absolute.

In other words, when I'm measuring the difference in altitude, the figure is quite reliable but the absolute altitude may be off. 

Many scientific instruments have that issue - high precision but lower accuracy. Satellite altimetry is just one example of that.

Do you understand now?   
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« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2013 at 7:21am by muso »  

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Ajax
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #96 - Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:12pm
 
muso wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 9:50pm:
OK, one last attempt. I have a hiking GPS. It's not particularly accurate, unless you calibrate it at mean sea level, but it's very precise.

When I'm climbing, I can see that I have ascended say 501 metres, but the absolute altitude is not accurate to 1 metre. It's precise enough to show that I have ascended even 1 metre, but it might only be accurate to 25 metres absolute.

In other words, when I'm measuring the difference in altitude, the figure is quite reliable but the absolute altitude may be off. 

Many scientific instruments have that issue - high precision but lower accuracy. Satellite altimetry is just one example of that.

Do you understand now?   


你傻


Nǐ shǎ

Quote:
Abstract—The unprecedented accuracy of elevations retrieved

from the Ice Cloud and Land Elevation Satellite (ICESat) laser

altimeter is investigated and used to characterize the range errors

in the Environmental Satellite (Envisat) and European Remote

Sensing 2 Satellite (ERS-2) radar altimeters over the continental

ice sheets. Cross-mission crossover analysis between time-coincident

ERS-2-, Envisat-, and ICESat-retrieved elevations and comparisons

to an ICESat-derived digital elevation map are used to
quantify the radar elevation error budget as a function of surface

slope and to investigate the effectiveness of a method to account

for the radar altimeter slope-induced error. The precision and

accuracy of the elevations retrieved from the ICESat Geoscience

Laser Altimeter System and the European Space Agency radar

altimeters on ERS-2 and Envisat are calculated over the Greenland

and Antarctic ice sheets using a crossover analysis. As a result

of this work, the laser precision is found to vary as a function of

surface slope from 14 to 59 cm, and the radar precision varies

from 59 cm to 3.7 m for ERS-2 and from 28 cm to 2.06 m for

Envisat. Envisat elevation retrievals when compared with ICESat

results over regions with less than 0.1◦ surface slopes show a mean

difference of 9 ± 5 cm for Greenland and −40 ± 98 cm over
Antarctica. ERS-2 elevation retrievals over these same low surface

slope regions differ from ICESat results by −56 ± 72 cm over

Greenland and 1.12 ± 1.16 m over Antarctica. At higher surface

slopes of 0.7◦ to 0.8◦, the Envisat/ICESat differences increase

to −2.27 ± 23 m over Greenland and to 0.05 ± 26 m over
Antarctica.


http://icesat.gsfc.nasa.gov/icesat/publications/pubs/Brenner-Precision_and_Accur...

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« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:20pm by Ajax »  

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #97 - Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:43pm
 
Careful with the personal insults. 你不聰明

ICEsat has a totally different configuration to Jason-2.
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Ajax
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #98 - Sep 26th, 2013 at 4:31pm
 
muso wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:43pm:
Careful with the personal insults. 你不聰明


it means "your silly" I think.... Cheesy

Quote:
ICEsat has a totally different configuration to Jason-2.


but the enigma of accuracy and precision still persists...!!!
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #99 - Sep 26th, 2013 at 10:22pm
 
Ajax wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 4:31pm:
muso wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:43pm:
Careful with the personal insults. 你不聰明


it means "your silly" I think.... Cheesy

Quote:
ICEsat has a totally different configuration to Jason-2.


but the enigma of accuracy and precision still persists...!!!


When you finally understand the concepts, let me know.

Yours said "You're stupid". Mine said "You're not too smart", but I speak Chinese better than I read it.

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #100 - Sep 27th, 2013 at 9:27am
 
I understand the concept, and  like I said thank God engineers build things.
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #101 - Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:12am
 
With an altimeter reading having an accuracy of +/- 25mm and a precision of better than +/- 1mm, what is the drift in the reading?
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Ajax
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #102 - Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:37am
 
muso wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:12am:
With an altimeter reading having an accuracy of +/- 25mm and a precision of better than +/- 1mm, what is the drift in the reading?


Like I keep saying, thank God engineers and not scientists build things.


Quote:
Accuracy

Accuracy and precision have very different meanings.

The average value of many readings taken with an accurate instrument will be close to the true value of the quantity being measured.

(If the instrument is not very precise, many repeated measurements will have to be made to reduce the uncertainty in the average value, whereas a precise and accurate instrument requires few repeated measurements to obtain a good measurement.)

Conversely, an inaccurate instrument is one which produces measurements whose average value is not the true value.

A famous example of the difference between precision and accuracy (and the influence of human nature in science) occurred a few years ago with the Hubble space telescope.

The manufacturers of the concave mirror for the telescope used a machine that could very precisely cut the glass so that its radius of curvature was known precisely to about 0.5 µm (0.0005 mm).

An astronomer who was going to be using the telescope soon after it was launched into orbit offered to confirm the measurement by using a much simpler technique that was not as precise as the instruments used by the manufacturer.

The manufacturers told him to stop worrying, and that their instruments were far more precise than the astronomer's simple equipment.

The telescope was launched into orbit, and as you may remember the images were fuzzy, very fuzzy ... in fact much worse than telescopes on earth. When the mirror manufacturers were asked to check their equipment, they found that they had forgot to include a certain spacer that added 2 mm to the measurement of the radius of curvature.

They had manufactured a radius of curvature that was precise to 0.5 µm but was inaccurate by 2 mm. The repercussions of this little "mistake" were enormous - NASA had a substantial amount of egg on its face, and, more to the point, the cost of correcting the telescope was enormous in terms of money (millions of dollars) and lost time.

The correction was achieved by inserting a corrective lens into the telescope, which sharpened the image but unfortunately meant that it could never be quite as good as was originally hoped.

http://www.patana.ac.th/secondary/science/anrophysics/ntopic1/resources/accuracy...



High Accuracy, High Precision
...

High Accuracy, Low Precision
...

Low Accuracy, High Precision
...
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« Last Edit: Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:58am by Ajax »  

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #103 - Sep 27th, 2013 at 11:39am
 
Ajax wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:37am:
muso wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:12am:
With an altimeter reading having an accuracy of +/- 25mm and a precision of better than +/- 1mm, what is the drift in the reading?


Like I keep saying, thank God engineers and not scientists build things.


Answer the question. If you prefer, how stable is the reading?
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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #104 - Sep 27th, 2013 at 11:59am
 
muso wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 11:39am:
Ajax wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:37am:
muso wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:12am:
With an altimeter reading having an accuracy of +/- 25mm and a precision of better than +/- 1mm, what is the drift in the reading?


Like I keep saying, thank God engineers and not scientists build things.


Answer the question. If you prefer, how stable is the reading?


The accuracy can be within a 50mm radius bullseye, +-25mm either way of dead centre.

The precision of the readings can be within +-1mm of each other.

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