Australian Politics Forum - Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??

Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #15 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 4:22pm

Rider wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Ajax have you read this?

http://notrickszone.com/2013/08/30/university-of-colorado-admits-radar-altimetry-is-pretty-much-useless-for-measuring-sea-level/

Satellite Measured Sea Level Is Measuring Ocean Heat
By Ed Caryl

Sometime in the last year, someone commented in some article that sea level rise as observed by satellite radar altimetry was overstated due to the fact that as warm water expands, it gets lighter, gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up. Since then, a couple of global maps have come to my attention.

see link for the rest....Muso and friends, no need to follow this link, it will only offend your religious zeal.

Hi Rider,

Hey dude i'm realizing really fast that these alarmists on here don't want to debate, but rather PUSH the AGW religion on to the forumites that frequent here.

They rubbish the data and when they cant do that they rubbish the presenter.

Any decent human being that reads the criticism of why satellites cannot measure sea level properly will understand.

These guys don't want to understand they already know, all they want to do is push the AGW agenda.

Quote:

University Of Colorado Radar Altimetry Is Pretty Much Useless For Measuring Sea Level

Satellite Measured Sea Level Is Measuring Ocean Heat
By Ed Caryl

Sometime in the last year, someone commented in some article that sea level rise as observed by satellite radar altimetry was overstated due to the fact that as warm water expands, it gets lighter, gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up. Since then, a couple of global maps have come to my attention. First, a map of sea level rise.

Read the rest here
http://notrickszone.com/2013/08/30/university-of-colorado-admits-radar-altimetry...

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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #16 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 4:33pm

So if you two geniuses agree with this "paper", could you please explain to me what the difference is between "bulging up" and "rising".

Does he means that it's bulging up like a helium balloon or what?

Quote:

gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up

How exactly does that bit work? Go on. If you believe it, explain it.

Ajax - does this mean that you now believe that the ocean is heating?

These replies are going to be very entertaining.

So far, we've established from this article that the ocean is heating and rising sorry bulging upwards. Is that a fair assessment?

I can see that he is meticulous with his citations too:

Quote:

someone commented in some article

Figure 1: Gradually increasing Bulging up tendency of the Oceans.

Just remind me what the confidence level of "Pretty Much" is. I can't seem to remember that one.

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« Last Edit: Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 4:54pm by muso »

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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #17 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:03pm

muso wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 4:33pm:

So if you two geniuses agree with this "paper", could you please explain to me what the difference is between "bulging up" and "rising".

Does he means that it's bulging up like a helium balloon or what?

Quote:

gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up

How exactly does that bit work? Go on. If you believe it, explain it.

Ajax - does this mean that you now believe that the ocean is heating?

These replies are going to be very entertaining.

So far, we've established from this article that the ocean is heating and rising sorry bulging upwards. Is that a fair assessment?

I can see that he is meticulous with his citations too:

Quote:

someone commented in some article

Figure 1: Gradually increasing Bulging up tendency of the Oceans.
http://sealevel.colorado.edu/files/2013_rel5/sl_ns_global.png

Just remind me what the confidence level of "Pretty Much" is. I can't seem to remember that one.

Why do you get bogged down on a word, the bottom line is satellites cannot read sea level rises accurately.

If you have some other data that says different then spit it out.

Quote:

Why is the GMSL different than local tide gauge measurements?

The global mean sea level (GMSL) we estimate is an average over the oceans (limited by the satellite inclination to ± 66 degrees latitude), and it cannot be used to predict relative sea level changes along the coasts. As an average, it indicates the general state of the sea level across the oceans and not any specific location. Local tide gauges measure the sea level at a single location relative to the local land surface, a measurement referred to as "relative sea level" (RSL). Because the land surfaces are dynamic, with some locations rising (e.g., Hudson Bay due to GIA) or sinking (e.g., New Orleans due to subsidence), relative sea level changes are different across world coasts. To understand the relative sea level effects of global oceanic volume changes (as estimated by the GMSL) at a specific location, issues such as GIA, tectonic uplift, and self attraction and loading (SAL, e.g., Tamisiea et al., 2010), must also be considered.

We do calibrate the altimeter sea level measurements against a network tide gauges to discover and monitor drift in the satellite (and sometimes tide gauge) measurements. This is discussed further in the tide gauge discussion.

GMSL is a good indicator of changes in the volume of water in the oceans due to mass influx (e.g., land ice melt) and density changes (e.g., thermal expansion), and is therefore of interest in detecting climate change

http://sealevel.colorado.edu/content/why-gmsl-different-local-tide-gauge-measure...

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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #18 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:05pm

Rider wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 3:25pm:

Did you get a special prize for being a good student at the Saul Alinsky College for Deadsh1ts?

* RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

OK, I can see how the first comment is supported by the second. So what you're saying is that you're going to resort to insults on those people who defend scientific methodology in order to silence them?

It might be all you have at your disposal, but I wouldn't try that on here.

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rabbitoh07

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #19 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:05pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 4:22pm:

Quote:

University Of Colorado Radar Altimetry Is Pretty Much Useless For Measuring Sea Level

Satellite Measured Sea Level Is Measuring Ocean Heat
By Ed Caryl

Sometime in the last year, someone commented in some article that sea level rise as observed by satellite radar altimetry was overstated due to the fact that as warm water expands, it gets lighter, gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up. Since then, a couple of global maps have come to my attention. First, a map of sea level rise.

Read the rest here
http://notrickszone.com/2013/08/30/university-of-colorado-admits-radar-altimetry...

Errr...water doesn't "get lighter" as it warms. It becomes less dense. THe mass remains the same - but the volume it occupies increases. Perhaps this author never did high school science?

But can you explain to us why the water is expanding Ajax?
Didn't you tell us you fell for the the Daily Mail column that told you that "global warming stopped in 1998"?

Why is the water expanding if the earth "stopped warming in 1998"?

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #20 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:08pm Ajax wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:03pm: Why do you get bogged down on a word, the bottom line is satellites cannot read sea level rises accurately. If you have some other data that says different then spit it out. You haven't answered my questions.
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#

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #21 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:10pm

Rider wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 3:25pm:

... Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. ...

Hunter S Thompson notwithstanding, paranoia is not true perception.

For those of us who don't pretend to know better than the best, it's a good idea to get some idea of who's pushing the lunatic fringe misinterpretation.

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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10975 Australia Gender:	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #22 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:39pm muso wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 5:08pm: You haven't answered my questions. There is nothing to answer, you're just trying to create a diversion from the topic at hand. And that is that satellites cannot measure sea level accurately....!! Tide gauges measure sea level.
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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #23 - Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 7:46pm

Once more:

So if you two geniuses agree with this "paper", could you please explain to me what the difference is between "bulging up" and "rising"?

Does he means that it's bulging up like a helium balloon or what?

Quote:
gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up

How exactly does that bit work? Go on. If you believe it, explain it.

Ajax - does this mean that you now believe that the ocean is heating?

I think you're evading the questions. Haven't you realised how silly that article was yet?

I've got another one:

In that article, how has the conclusion that satellite data is unreliable been reached?

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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #24 - Sep 6^th, 2013 at 12:37pm

muso wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 7:46pm:

Once more:

So if you two geniuses agree with this "paper", could you please explain to me what the difference is between "bulging up" and "rising"?

Does he means that it's bulging up like a helium balloon or what?

Quote:
gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up

How exactly does that bit work? Go on. If you believe it, explain it.

Ajax - does this mean that you now believe that the ocean is heating?

I think you're evading the questions. Haven't you realised how silly that article was yet?

I've got another one:

In that article, how has the conclusion that satellite data is unreliable been reached?

Your the scientist why don't you explain it.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Satellites cannot measure sea levels accurately there is nothing more to say.

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2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #25 - Sep 6^th, 2013 at 2:16pm Ajax wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 12:37pm: ... Satellites cannot measure sea levels accurately ... The vast majority of the best qualified seem to reckon satellites are accurate enough.
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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #26 - Sep 6^th, 2013 at 3:59pm

# wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 2:16pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

...
Satellites cannot measure sea levels accurately ...

The vast majority of the best qualified seem to reckon satellites are accurate enough.

Because the skeptical science blog says so....???

Please.......simon says...............................!!!!!

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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #27 - Sep 6^th, 2013 at 5:20pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

Your the scientist why don't you explain it.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Satellites cannot measure sea levels accurately there is nothing more to say.

You don't have to be a scientist to understand simple logic.

You are demonstrating that you are either not a true sceptic, or a simpleton. My theory is that you are not a true sceptic.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #28 - Sep 6^th, 2013 at 5:29pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

muso wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 7:46pm:

Once more:

So if you two geniuses agree with this "paper", could you please explain to me what the difference is between "bulging up" and "rising"?

Does he means that it's bulging up like a helium balloon or what?

Quote:
gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up

How exactly does that bit work? Go on. If you believe it, explain it.

Ajax - does this mean that you now believe that the ocean is heating?

I think you're evading the questions. Haven't you realised how silly that article was yet?

I've got another one:

In that article, how has the conclusion that satellite data is unreliable been reached?

Your the scientist why don't you explain it.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Satellites cannot measure sea levels accurately there is nothing more to say.

Then you would know what the accuracy of the best satellite sea surface level systems are.

What are they? +/- what?

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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #29 - Sep 9^th, 2013 at 9:39am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

muso wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 7:46pm:

Once more:

So if you two geniuses agree with this "paper", could you please explain to me what the difference is between "bulging up" and "rising"?

Does he means that it's bulging up like a helium balloon or what?

Quote:
gravity has less pull on it, and it bulges up

How exactly does that bit work? Go on. If you believe it, explain it.

Ajax - does this mean that you now believe that the ocean is heating?

I think you're evading the questions. Haven't you realised how silly that article was yet?

I've got another one:

In that article, how has the conclusion that satellite data is unreliable been reached?

Your the scientist why don't you explain it.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Satellites cannot measure sea levels accurately there is nothing more to say.

Then you would know what the accuracy of the best satellite sea surface level systems are.

What are they? +/- what?

I think Professor Soon was being kind to you guys, he estimated an error of about 100mm (10cm) (4").

Quote:

Abstract—The unprecedented accuracy of elevations retrieved from the Ice Cloud and Land Elevation Satellite (ICESat)

laser altimeter is investigated and used to characterize the range errors in the Environmental Satellite (Envisat) and European Remote Sensing 2 Satellite (ERS-2) radar altimeters over the continental ice sheets.

Cross-mission crossover analysis between time-coincident
ERS-2-, Envisat-, and ICESat-retrieved elevations and comparisonsto an ICESat-derived digital elevation map are used to quantify the radar elevation error budget as a function of surface slope and to investigate the effectiveness of a method to account for the radar altimeter slope-induced error.

The precision and accuracy of the elevations retrieved from the ICESat Geoscience Laser Altimeter System and the European Space Agency radar altimeters on ERS-2 and Envisat are calculated over the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets using a crossover analysis.

As a result of this work, the laser precision is found to vary as a function of surface slope from 14 to 59 cm, and the radar precision varies from 59 cm to 3.7 m for ERS-2 and from 28 cm to 2.06 m for Envisat.

Envisat elevation retrievals when compared with ICESat
results over regions with less than 0.1◦ surface slopes show a mean difference of 9 ± 5 cm for Greenland and −40 ± 98 cm over Antarctica. ERS-2 elevation retrievals over these same low surface slope regions differ from ICESat results by −56 ± 72 cm over Greenland and 1.12 ± 1.16 m over Antarctica.

At higher surface slopes of 0.7◦ to 0.8◦, the Envisat/ICESat differences increase to −2.27 ± 23 m over Greenland and to 0.05 ± 26 m over Antarctica.

http://icesat.gsfc.nasa.gov/icesat/publications/pubs/Brenner-Precision_and_Accur...

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