Australian Politics Forum - Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??

muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #60 - Sep 15^th, 2013 at 8:31pm

You know, I have direct experience with the effects of Auroras on Radio Frequencies.

Two things. Firstly, in the unlikely event of a geomagnetic storm, nobody would be taking measurements.

Secondly, in the case of a severe event, it would do exactly what it said in the article. It would overwhelm the receiver. No measurements would be possible in that event. None whatsoever.

You're trying very hard, but what actually happens in the ionosphere is phase distortion. The absolute frequency remains the same. Phase distortion would normally render communications very difficult.

Many years ago, I communicated using cw (yes, Morse Code) via an auroral curtain. You could hear the phase distortion very clearly bouncing off the scintillating E layers. What starts off as a clear tone comes out as a harsh whisper like tone. (I used to be able to send and receive at 30 wpm under such conditions, when others couldn't even hear the signal.)

Once again. Cosmic rays do not change the frequency of microwaves.

The unique factor about the Topex and Jason satellites is the accuracy of the position finding equipment. The Jason 2 Satellite is equipped with the Poseidon 3 Satellite Altimeter instrument. The absolute accuracy is +/- 2.5cm, but the precision (stability) is better than 1mm. It is also checked against reference tidal gauges. The overall result of this, plus using multiple passes (decreasing the error) is an overall precision of +/- 0.4 mm.

I provided a link to the detailed methodology used by the University of Colorado in a previous post. These guys are the experts in the field.

Quote:

Three independent tracking systems determined the position of the spacecraft. The first, the NASA laser retroreflector array (LRA) reflected laser beams from a network of 10 to 15 ground-based laser ranging stations under clear skies. The second, for all-weather, global tracking, was provided by the CNES Doppler Orbitography and Radiopositioning Integrated by Satellite tracking system receiver (DORIS). This device uses microwave doppler techniques (changes in radio frequency corresponding to relative velocity) to track the spacecraft. DORIS consists of an on-board receiver and a global network of 40 to 50 ground-based transmitting stations.

It also uses a microwave radiometer operating at 18, 21, and 37 GHz to compensate for moisture in the path.

This is a unique system that is not shared by any other satellite, such as ICEsat.

Willie Soon and Christopher Monckton are of course speaking out of their usual posterior orifices. Neither are current experts in this field. Soon is an Astronomer. Nils Axel Morner is a has-been. He has been unable to keep track with the advancements in the field of oceanography.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ostm/main/index.html#.UjWMUqwR-R0

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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #61 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:35pm

Look i'm not questioning what you have or haven't done...?

All i'm saying is that the frequency of altimeters can be affected by water vapour, wind speed, wave height and cosmic rays.

So far I haven't found anything that tells me otherwise....??

Quote:

3.1. How altimetry works

Altimetry satellites basically determine the distance from the satellite to a target surface by measuring the satellite-to-surface round-trip time of a radar pulse. However, this is not the only measurement made in the process, and a lot of other information can be extracted from altimetry.

The principle is that the altimeter emits a radar wave and analyses the return signal that bounces off the surface. Surface height is the difference between the satellite's position on orbit with respect to an arbitrary reference surface (the Earth's centre or a rough approximation of the Earth's surface: the reference ellipsoid) and the satellite-to-surface range (calculated by measuring the time taken for the signal to make the round trip). Besides surface height, by looking at the return signal's amplitude and waveform, we can also measure wave height and wind speed over the oceans, and more generally, backscatter coefficient and surface roughness for most surfaces off which the signal is reflected.
If the altimeter emits in two frequencies, the comparison between the signals, with respect to the frequencies used, can also generate interesting results (rain rate over the oceans, detection of crevasses over ice shelves, etc).

To obtain measurements accurate to within a few centimetres over a range of several hundred kilometres requires an extremely precise knowledge of the satellite's orbital position. Thus several locating systems are usually carried onboard altimetry satellites.

Any interference with the radar signal also needs to be taken into account. Water vapour and electrons in the atmosphere, sea state and a range of other parameters can affect the signal round-trip time, thus distorting range measurements

. We can correct for these interference effects on the altimeter signal by measuring them with supporting instruments, or at several different frequencies, or by modelling them.
Altimetry thus requires a lot of information to be taken into account before being able to use the data. Data processing is also a major part of altimetry, producing data of different levels optimised for different uses at the highest levels.

http://www.altimetry.info/html/alti/principle/welcome_en.html

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #62 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 1:47pm I already explained to you that these interferences are taken into account. You didn't read the post.
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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10982 Australia Gender:	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #63 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 2:01pm muso wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 1:47pm: I already explained to you that these interferences are taken into account. You didn't read the post. So do you agree that cosmic rays disturb the frequency of the altimeter.......??????
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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #64 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 3:46pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 2:01pm:

muso wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

I already explained to you that these interferences are taken into account. You didn't read the post.

So do you agree that cosmic rays disturb the frequency of the altimeter.......??????

Are you deliberately playing dumb?

- and the word you used was "change", not disturb. How do you disturb a frequency anyway? Play music in its backyard at 2 am ?

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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #65 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:29pm

muso wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 3:46pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 2:01pm:

muso wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

I already explained to you that these interferences are taken into account. You didn't read the post.

So do you agree that cosmic rays disturb the frequency of the altimeter.......??????

Are you deliberately playing dumb?

- and the word you used was "change", not disturb. How do you disturb a frequency anyway? Play music in its backyard at 2 am ?

Just like the frequency passes through the atmosphere and is affected by wind and water vapour and cosmic rays. Wink

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #66 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm Ajax wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:29pm: Just like the frequency passes through the atmosphere and is affected by wind and water vapour and cosmic rays. It's a bit like saying that a coherent red light would pass through a body of water and somehow change from red to blue. How does that work? magic?
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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #67 - Sep 17^th, 2013 at 12:04pm

muso wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Just like the frequency passes through the atmosphere and is affected by wind and water vapour and cosmic rays.

It's a bit like saying that a coherent red light would pass through a body of water and somehow change from red to blue. How does that work? magic?

Try a colorimeter.....!!!!!

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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #68 - Sep 17^th, 2013 at 3:20pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 17^th, 2013 at 12:04pm:

muso wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Just like the frequency passes through the atmosphere and is affected by wind and water vapour and cosmic rays.

It's a bit like saying that a coherent red light would pass through a body of water and somehow change from red to blue. How does that work? magic?

Try a colorimeter.....!!!!!

I know what a colorimeter is, but explain what you mean.

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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #69 - Sep 18^th, 2013 at 4:02pm

muso wrote on Sep 17^th, 2013 at 3:20pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 17^th, 2013 at 12:04pm:

muso wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:29pm:

Just like the frequency passes through the atmosphere and is affected by wind and water vapour and cosmic rays.

It's a bit like saying that a coherent red light would pass through a body of water and somehow change from red to blue. How does that work? magic?

Try a colorimeter.....!!!!!

I know what a colorimeter is, but explain what you mean.

Cosmic rays from our sun and to a lesser extent from outer space do have the ability to interfere with the frequency of altimeters.....!!!!

Plain and simple.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #70 - Sep 19^th, 2013 at 8:11pm How does that work? How do high energy protons change the wavelength/ frequency of an electromagnetic transmission? Does it interact somehow with the emission and change its frequency? You are digging yourself into a bigger hole, Ajax.
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Ajax

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #71 - Sep 20^th, 2013 at 2:20pm

muso wrote on Sep 19^th, 2013 at 8:11pm:

How does that work? How do high energy protons change the wavelength/ frequency of an electromagnetic transmission? Does it interact somehow with the emission and change its frequency?

You are digging yourself into a bigger hole, Ajax.

look i'm not going to try to explain the science.

The fact remains that cosmic rays do affect the frequency of the satellites, its in so many of the links I have provided.

If you can provide a source that says otherwise, please do so.

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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #72 - Sep 20^th, 2013 at 8:37pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 20^th, 2013 at 2:20pm:

muso wrote on Sep 19^th, 2013 at 8:11pm:

How does that work? How do high energy protons change the wavelength/ frequency of an electromagnetic transmission? Does it interact somehow with the emission and change its frequency?

You are digging yourself into a bigger hole, Ajax.

look i'm not going to try to explain the science.

Quote:

The fact remains that cosmic rays do affect the frequency of the satellites, its in so many of the links I have provided.

No it isn't Grin

If it is, then highlight it. Grin

Quote:

If you can provide a source that says otherwise, please do so.

You are making the extraordinary claims. Go on. If you're right, they may have to rewrite the physics books. I look forward to your extraordinary evidence. Grin

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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10982 Australia Gender:	Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..?? Reply #73 - Sep 21^st, 2013 at 10:28am I have given you links as to how and why......!!!! Denying them means you must know more......!!!! But you're only one person claiming this or that, and you're probably not an expert. So I know who I believe.
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muso

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Re: Why satellites cannot measure sea level..??
Reply #74 - Sep 21^st, 2013 at 11:21am

Ajax wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 10:28am:

I have given you links as to how and why......!!!!

Denying them means you must know more......!!!!

But you're only one person claiming this or that, and you're probably not an expert.

So I know who I believe.

This is a good indication of why you shouldn't be taken seriously. You are totally out of your depth but refuse to acknowledge the fact.

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