Australian Politics Forum - Say goodbye to the NBN

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #315 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:13pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

...
fooling you is rather easy.

Quote:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln

You might be well advised to contemplate whether it's only yourself that you'r fooling.

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longweekend58

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #316 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:20pm

# wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:08pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 10:00am:

... Ive lived in my own home for 32 years and never had any problem with it. ...

Perhaps you're just lucky.

Worst of the worst: Photos of Australia’s copper network
When good copper cable goes bad
network in shocking state

Copper good for 100 years, says Thodey Quote:

Now, we’re absolutely sure that Thodey’s comments will be met with howls of derision from many quarters. After all, there are plenty out there on broadband connections which suffer poor quality precisely because of poor copper lines. There are even those (such as your writer) who tend to suffer issues with their broadband connection when it rains.

No pristine photos: Telstra rejects copper challenge Quote:

The nation’s largest telco Telstra has declined a challenge to provide photos highlighting good examples of the best-maintained infrastructure in its national copper telecommunications network, following the publication several weeks ago of a “worst of the worst” gallery of photos of the network.

Because they couldn't, perhaps?

New technology leaves Telstra in the copper age Quote:

Warren, group manager, regulatory strategy, told the committee: "I think it is right to suggest that ADSL is an interim technology. It is probably the last sweating, if you like, of the old copper network assets. In copper years, if you like, we are at a sort of transition - we are at five minutes to midnight."

so no consideration given to simple maintenance and replacement? bottom line is that the copper network is NOT in bad condition and quoting a handful of bad examples is not much of an argument.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #317 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:20pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 3:54pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

FTTN was originally suggested by Telstra in 2004 but it was rejected by the ACCC.

Most countries that introduced FTTN are now replacing it.

FTTN is not much cheaper than FTTH in most cases.

FTTN is a lot slower

In new areas the cost is the same for both.

If that is the case, one would imagine FTTH would pass a CBA with few problems.

that's whaty ou would think... but the above isn't even remotely true.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #318 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:22pm

# wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

...
fooling you is rather easy.

Quote:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln

You might be well advised to contemplate whether it's only yourself that you'r fooling.

I was referring to booby and there are few on here that would consider him anything more than an intellectual dud.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #319 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:26pm

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 11:25am:

With FTTN does this mean they are replacing all existing copper lines so anyone currently on ADSL2+ for example would have the line from the exchange to the node replaced?

That's what they imply. Whether that's what they do - well - we'll see.

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 11:25am:

I fail to see how this will increase anyone's speed at all. The latency/ping might be reduced over distance due to the fibre, however this doesn't seem like it would change your upload/download speed as it still goes through the same slow copper wire from the house.

Pretty much. There are so many ifs and buts that the only way any subscriber will know for sure is after it's too late.

FTTN does not address issues with the customer access network, which is the most substantial problem of all. Basically, the Coalitions plan avoids doing anything that might actually work. That's why it has Murdoch's blessing.

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 11:25am:

Also how about the connection from Australia to other countries? Is it going to stay the same.
...

That's a quite separate issue. The NBN primarily addresses the "last mile": the bit between the exchange and the user. Very little of it is concerned with trunks and major feeders.

Much of the improvement in access to overseas content is attributable to Content Distribution Networks (you'll see the letters 'cdn' in URLs). Overseas content is actually hosted in Australia. Intentional links are expensive, but more are being progressively added. It just isn't anything to do with the NBN.

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #320 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

# wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:10pm:

[quote author=longweekend58 link=1378606062/285#285 date=1379285807]... there is in fact NO EXPONENTIAL growth in bandwidth. it is certainly rising but it is not exponential.

Take another look at the graph. Looks exponential to me. You say otherwise. Substantiate your assertion.

...
so where is the post 2004 bandwidth growth data??

Where is your substantiation that the growth:

is not exponential and
has not continued at an exponential rate

?

Put up or take the challenge

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Bobby.

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #321 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:44pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:22pm:

# wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

...
fooling you is rather easy.

Quote:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln

You might be well advised to contemplate whether it's only yourself that you'r fooling.

I was referring to booby and there are few on here that would consider him anything more than an intellectual dud.

Longloser,
No they don't & for the record you're an intellectual nobody who can't spell.

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #322 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 5:20pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:21pm:

# wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:10pm:

...
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 8:56am:

the claim that we will be NEEDING 1Gbps by 2020 is just silly.

The source is credible. Certainly more credible that you, I or any politician. Once again, substantiate your assertion.
...

Quigley is not a credible commentator. he is just a CEO who has quit and is desperately trying to defend his record by claiming the we will need bandwidth that 'only he can supply'. no evidence, no justification, just foolish commentary.

If he's wrong, then you'll have no difficulty finding a credible* commentator whose forecast makes you less uncomfortable.

Put up or take the challenge

*credible: not you, not me, not any politician

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 106531 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Say goodbye to the NBN Reply #323 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 5:30pm Bobby. wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:07pm: It looks like we'll be using copper for the next 50 years. I wonder if Longweekend even watched the above video - from a qualified engineer? He doesn't have anything good to say about Turnbull's solutions.
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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #324 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 8:37pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:22pm:

... ask yourself why labor never did a CBA? ...

That's a question I've asked in fora far more credible than this. The answer is that there have been numerous analyses, assessments, studies, papers and whatever over the years.

When Internet usage first began to bloom, issues with Australia's telecommunications network were highlighted. Here are a few of the links:
Roger Clarke's 'Networked Nation'
ACS: Vision for a Networked Nation
Networking Australia's Future
Note that they all date from 1994. Over the intervening years, there have been many more. 1994 was during the Keating years.

Take particular note of the second term of reference for the government inquiry. Labor has indeed done cost/benefit analysis.

Until recently, enhanced and equitable access to broadband had bipartisan support. Remember OpEl? That support evaporated when Kevin Rudd announced fibre to the premises. So how did that come about?

Rudd went to the 2007 election with a fibre to the node plan. At the time, the Coalition branded it "fraudband". Unfortunately, the plan relied on access to Telstra's monopoly customer access network. Then Telstra CEO, Sol Trujillo, played the ultimate obstructionist.

Trujillo was thinking in American. Rudd did what no US President would or could: he decided to build over Telstra's monopoly. Most of the cost of building a network lies in getting machines and workers to the job. It made no sense to duplicate the already obsolete copper network, so he went for fibre to the premises.

Under the circumstances, what's your problem?

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« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2013 at 8:03am by # »

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #325 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 8:46pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

# wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:18pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

what if the cost benefit anaylsis show FTTH is the best ?

If a cost/benefit analysis commissioned by the Coalition does indeed show that FTTH is best, then whoever did the analysis will never again get any work from the Coalition. Murdoch will probably ensure that they never work again, at all.

Of course, the public will never know of the result of that analysis. A new one will be quietly commissioned. That one will show conclusively that FTTN is the be-all and end-all.

and you are absolutely certainn of this, are you # ?

It's my assessment of the probabilities, given the improbability of your scenario.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

...
I see still no answer, ...

Perhaps you just have a vision problem. Then again, if the answers you get don't relate to the question you think you asked, then maybe you need to rephrase the question.

Your question raises other questions:

What is the probability that a cost/benefit analysis commissioned by the Coalition will yield the result you posit?
If it did, what are the probable consequences?

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« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2013 at 9:18am by # »

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #326 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 8:57pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 1:42pm:

# wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:24pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

...
so where is the post 2004 bandwidth growth data??

So where's your substantiation?

...

you are the one making the claim,...

Actually, I'm the only one who's provided hard data. You've provided nothing but unsubstantiated assertion.

Where is your substantiation that:

the growth is not exponential and
the growth has not continued, exponentially

?

Put up or take the challenge

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #327 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 9:01pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 3:54pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

FTTN was originally suggested by Telstra in 2004 but it was rejected by the ACCC.

Most countries that introduced FTTN are now replacing it.

FTTN is not much cheaper than FTTH in most cases.

FTTN is a lot slower

In new areas the cost is the same for both.

If that is the case, one would imagine FTTH would pass a CBA with few problems.

An honest CBA, no doubt. A political one, probably not.

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #328 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 9:09pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:20pm:

...
so no consideration given to simple maintenance and replacement?

What evidence do you have that necessary maintenance has been carried out? Do you think that copper lasts forever? Given that copper is obsolete, does it make sense to replace degraded copper with the same obsolete technology?

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:20pm:

bottom line is that the copper network is NOT in bad condition

What evidence do you have to substantiate that assertion? Here's what the people on the job say: Quote:

Unions have told the ABC that Telstra's copper network is in a state of disrepair, with workers at the coalface of the infrastructure using plastic bags to protect cables from water.

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 16^th, 2013 at 4:20pm:

and quoting a handful of bad examples is not much of an argument.

What evidence do you have that there are only a handful of such issues?

Put up or take the challenge

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« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2013 at 8:07am by # »

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Re: Say goodbye to the NBN
Reply #329 - Sep 16^th, 2013 at 10:42pm

Good posts #.

Quote:

Unions raise doubts over Telstra's copper network; workers using plastic bags to waterproof cables

By Jake Sturmer and Johanna McDiarmid

Updated Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:34am AEST

Unions have told the ABC that Telstra's copper network is in a state of disrepair, with workers at the coalface of the infrastructure using plastic bags to protect cables from water.

The telecommunications pits have been nicknamed 'bag-dad' by contractors because of the plastic bags, that are in theory supposed to keep the water out.

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