Australian Politics Forum - Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat

stryder

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Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:34am

Carbon tax to blame for loss, says Bill Kelty

FORMER ACTU secretary Bill Kelty has accused Labor of underestimating Tony Abbott for years declaring the party's breach of trust with voters over the carbon tax was a bigger cause of its defeat than the disunity cited by senior ALP figures. ,

Mr Kelty, who is backing Bill Shorten in the mould of Bob Hawke and Paul Keating to become the next ALP leader, said the seeds for last Saturday's loss could be traced back to the failure of Labor to explain to voters why Kevin Rudd was dumped in favour of Julia Gillard in 2010.

"To be honest, I think they lost the election in two points of history," Mr Kelty said.

"They didn't ever explain the change of leadership from Rudd to Gillard. Therefore they didn't lose the next election, but they didn't win it either. So there goes that first downward trend. People couldn't understand why it wasn't explained to them.

"Second, when Julia Gillard actually announced the Greens policy (of introducing a carbon tax), people saw it as a breach of faith, a breach of trust. When people have come to a view that they don't trust you, when you have broken a commitment to them, when enough people believe that, it gives them a great opportunity therefore not to be interested in politics, they just wait until the next election."

Mr Kelty's frank assessment contrasts with a raft of senior Labor MPs, including Tony Burke, Tanya Plibersek and Greg Combet, who have primarily blamed Labor's defeat on the leadership instability and party division.

Mr Kelty said when trust was lost between a government and voters over broken policy commitments, "You can see it".

"With Paul Keating, it was after the budget in 1993. People said: 'I think you have broken our commitment of trust, it's very hard for us to vote for you,' " he said. "When Anna Bligh decided to sell assets and she didn't explain it to the electorate beforehand, then it broke that covenant of trust.

"All the other things don't matter. When that essential covenant of trust between the electorate and those who are elected is broken, it's very, very hard to rebuild."

Asked about senior Labor MPs citing disunity for the defeat, he said: "You just think when that essential covenant of trust is broken, don't blame the media, don't blame all these petty divisions, always look for the fundamental cause. I think you learn in politics that the last thing you break is the covenant of trust."

The australian; Erwin hannan, industrial editor

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« Last Edit: Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:47am by stryder »

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stryder

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #1 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:37am

Mr Kelty said Labor had underestimated Mr Abbott "for some years (and) you should never underestimate your opposition".

"Abbott has a lot of ability and works very hard," he said. "I think the best way to deal with Abbott is to deal with him honestly, combatively and fairly, and recognise his talent and work hard at it - the same way Abbott did against Rudd.

"If you want a lesson, then some of the lessons you get in life is that Howard stood up to Bob (Hawke), and to Paul Keating. He never beat them, in a sense, but he was a campaigner against them, was honorable, and he just worked assiduously at it."

He did not want to be critical of Anthony Albanese but believed Mr Shorten was better-placed to be the next leader.

"If the party wants to look to the next generation, look to the next generation, and I think Shorten is more of the next generation," he said.

Mr Shorten was an "old-fashioned leader, in the sense, that he is more Hawke, and more Keating, and more traditional Labor". "I think he's got to that point in his life where I think he has the maturity and the responsibility to lead the Labor Party," Mr Kelty said.

The process of opening up the leadership to party members had its advantages and disadvantages but "there's no point complaining about it".

'It gives the party an opportunity to give a legitimacy to a new leader," he said.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74520 Gender:	Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat Reply #2 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:39am Considering that it was the unions factions that wanted Rudd replaced by Gillard, what else would you expect them to say.
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stryder

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #3 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:45am

I know there will be time ahead for labor figures and historians to debate why the australian labor party was defeated comprehensively last saturday, but I believe the no carbon tax pledge is one of the many factors that contributed to labors defeat, hands down along with other factors such as the boat people issue, spending taxpayers money into many wasteful policies and programs and the debt were accumulating, the shady and dark relationship between the unions and the labor party itself revealed through the craig thommo affair and others like the backstabbing nature of the ALP leadership itself

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58507 Here Gender:	Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat Reply #4 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:48am He is not really correct though the way it was used had an impact.
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John Smith

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #5 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:52am

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:45am:

I know there will be time ahead for labor figures and historians to debate why the australian labor party was defeated comprehensively last saturday, but I believe the no carbon tax pledge is one of the many factors that contributed to labors defeat, hands down along with other factors such as the boat people issue, spending taxpayers money into many wasteful policies and programs and the debt were accumulating, the shady and dark relationship between the unions and the labor party itself revealed through the craig thommo affair and others like the backstabbing nature of the ALP leadership itself

yes, it was one of MANY factors ... but it was not the reason in itself.

If the only thing labor had done wrong was to introduce the carbon tax, and there were no other issues, the libs would never have won the election ...

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RightSadFred Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2220 Gender:	Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat Reply #6 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:04am John Smith Sure Gillard lied about the tax that most don't want, but the fact she lied about does not mean most wanted it like your dumb logic is trying to suggest.
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John Smith

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #7 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:10am

RightSadFred wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:04am:

John Smith

Sure Gillard lied about the tax that most don't want, but the fact she lied about does not mean most wanted it like your dumb logic is trying to suggest.

I didn't say most wanted it .... If I'd wanted to suggest that I would have said so.

All I am saying is that by the time the election came around I don't think most people cared enough about the carbon tax for it to have been the determining factor

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stryder

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #8 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:11am

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:45am:

I know there will be time ahead for labor figures and historians to debate why the australian labor party was defeated comprehensively last saturday, but I believe the no carbon tax pledge is one of the many factors that contributed to labors defeat, hands down along with other factors such as the boat people issue, spending taxpayers money into many wasteful policies and programs and the debt were accumulating, the shady and dark relationship between the unions and the labor party itself revealed through the craig thommo affair and others like the backstabbing nature of the ALP leadership itself

yes, it was one of MANY factors ... but it was not the reason in itself.

If the only thing labor had done wrong was to introduce the carbon tax, and there were no other issues, the libs would never have won the election ...

And yet stupidity still runs wild in the ALP still as this week Labor member Mark Dreyfus has declared his party will oppose Tony Abbotts attempts to scrap the carbon tax, by stating that he got a mandate to defend good policy ? I MEAN HELLO, LABOR JUST GOT ITS @RSE KICKED LAST SATURDAY BY THE ELECTORATE AND HE SAYS THAT Grin

Does labor want to learn from its mistakes or just be as dismissive of its mistakes like richard dreyfus and as you seem to be John smith ???

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RightSadFred

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #9 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:13am

stryder

Quote:

"Abbott has a lot of ability and works very hard," he said. "I think the best way to deal with Abbott is to deal with him honestly, combatively and fairly, and recognise his talent and work hard at it - the same way Abbott did against Rudd.

"If you want a lesson, then some of the lessons you get in life is that Howard stood up to Bob (Hawke), and to Paul Keating. He never beat them, in a sense, but he was a campaigner against them, was honorable, and he just worked assiduously at it."

I have been saying this for years, the ALP listened to very short sighted spin doctors that seem to be ideologically retarded UK style hacks.

For reasons I don't get Abbott has slowly grown on people which has a lot to do with Gillard and Rudd which voters can no longer stand.

My mechanic lives south of me in Abbott's electorate, I was out to lunch with him and all his business mates who work in the area, one comment everyone agreed on is that you can like hate Abbott but he is something that an ALP leader will never be .... genuine.

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RightSadFred

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #10 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:19am

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:10am:

RightSadFred wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:04am:

John Smith

Sure Gillard lied about the tax that most don't want, but the fact she lied about does not mean most wanted it like your dumb logic is trying to suggest.

I didn't say most wanted it .... If I'd wanted to suggest that I would have said so.

All I am saying is that by the time the election came around I don't think most people cared enough about the carbon tax for it to have been the determining factor

John Smith

So then you oppose democracy, you need to make your mind up. The ALP introduced a tax they lied about and the reason she lied is because people don't want it. The ALP introduced the tax and now the electorate no longer wants the ALP in power, in fact returned a historically low primary.

You can keep carrying on the way you do as it seems it is what you do, but then you get bent all out of shape when anyone points out your hypocrisy and flaws in you stupid argument.

You need to embrace your hypocrisy and stupidity, its seems to be all you have.

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John Smith

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #11 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:23am

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:45am:

I know there will be time ahead for labor figures and historians to debate why the australian labor party was defeated comprehensively last saturday, but I believe the no carbon tax pledge is one of the many factors that contributed to labors defeat, hands down along with other factors such as the boat people issue, spending taxpayers money into many wasteful policies and programs and the debt were accumulating, the shady and dark relationship between the unions and the labor party itself revealed through the craig thommo affair and others like the backstabbing nature of the ALP leadership itself

yes, it was one of MANY factors ... but it was not the reason in itself.

If the only thing labor had done wrong was to introduce the carbon tax, and there were no other issues, the libs would never have won the election ...

And yet stupidity still runs wild in the ALP still as this week Labor member Mark Dreyfus has declared his party will oppose Tony Abbotts attempts to scrap the carbon tax, by stating that he got a mandate to defend good policy ? I MEAN HELLO, LABOR JUST GOT ITS @RSE KICKED LAST SATURDAY BY THE ELECTORATE AND HE SAYS THAT Grin

Does labor want to learn from its mistakes or just be as dismissive of its mistakes like richard dreyfus and as you seem to be John smith ???

I'm not dismissive of anything, I just don't believe that Abbott won a mandate to do what he likes .. the people voted for a change in government, they also voted for a senate that would stop Abbott railroading his policies through ... why do you pretend that only the vote in the house of representatives matters and the vote in the senate can be dismissed ?

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John Smith

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #12 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:32am

RightSadFred wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:19am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:10am:

RightSadFred wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:04am:

John Smith

Sure Gillard lied about the tax that most don't want, but the fact she lied about does not mean most wanted it like your dumb logic is trying to suggest.

I didn't say most wanted it .... If I'd wanted to suggest that I would have said so.

All I am saying is that by the time the election came around I don't think most people cared enough about the carbon tax for it to have been the determining factor

John Smith

So then you oppose democracy, you need to make your mind up. The ALP introduced a tax they lied about and the reason she lied is because people don't want it. The ALP introduced the tax and now the electorate no longer wants the ALP in power, in fact returned a historically low primary.

You can keep carrying on the way you do as it seems it is what you do, but then you get bent all out of shape when anyone points out your hypocrisy and flaws in you stupid argument.

You need to embrace your hypocrisy and stupidity, its seems to be all you have.

Is that how you hide your ignorance, by acting like a drama queen? ... the millions that voted for labor or the other parties do not get their votes dismissed just because the libs won ...

You keep repeating that libs won, that is not in dispute here. The argument is if you think they won because of the carbon tax or because of other reasons ... My opinion is that they won because of other reasons. I don't know of anyone, from either side of the fence, that voted based on the carbon tax ...

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stryder

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #13 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:33am

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:23am:

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:45am:

I know there will be time ahead for labor figures and historians to debate why the australian labor party was defeated comprehensively last saturday, but I believe the no carbon tax pledge is one of the many factors that contributed to labors defeat, hands down along with other factors such as the boat people issue, spending taxpayers money into many wasteful policies and programs and the debt were accumulating, the shady and dark relationship between the unions and the labor party itself revealed through the craig thommo affair and others like the backstabbing nature of the ALP leadership itself

yes, it was one of MANY factors ... but it was not the reason in itself.

If the only thing labor had done wrong was to introduce the carbon tax, and there were no other issues, the libs would never have won the election ...

And yet stupidity still runs wild in the ALP still as this week Labor member Mark Dreyfus has declared his party will oppose Tony Abbotts attempts to scrap the carbon tax, by stating that he got a mandate to defend good policy ? I MEAN HELLO, LABOR JUST GOT ITS @RSE KICKED LAST SATURDAY BY THE ELECTORATE AND HE SAYS THAT Grin

Does labor want to learn from its mistakes or just be as dismissive of its mistakes like richard dreyfus and as you seem to be John smith ???

I'm not dismissive of anything, I just don't believe that Abbott won a mandate to do what he likes .. the people voted for a change in government, they also voted for a senate that would stop Abbott railroading his policies through ... why do you pretend that only the vote in the house of representatives matters and the vote in the senate can be dismissed ?

Im not pretending anything, Abbott pretty much made it clear he wants to scrap the carbon tax he said it many times in slogans and sentences that people like yourself and lefties mocked, but Tony abbott won the trust of the australian people last saturday with that stated message repeated many times.

Quite frankly i believe the senate needs to be reformed as others as suggested to clearly stop the confusion of the measure of any mandate itself, will that happen is another thing.

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John Smith

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Re: Carbon tax is to blame for labors defeat
Reply #14 - Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:40am

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:33am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:23am:

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

stryder wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 8:45am:

I know there will be time ahead for labor figures and historians to debate why the australian labor party was defeated comprehensively last saturday, but I believe the no carbon tax pledge is one of the many factors that contributed to labors defeat, hands down along with other factors such as the boat people issue, spending taxpayers money into many wasteful policies and programs and the debt were accumulating, the shady and dark relationship between the unions and the labor party itself revealed through the craig thommo affair and others like the backstabbing nature of the ALP leadership itself

yes, it was one of MANY factors ... but it was not the reason in itself.

If the only thing labor had done wrong was to introduce the carbon tax, and there were no other issues, the libs would never have won the election ...

And yet stupidity still runs wild in the ALP still as this week Labor member Mark Dreyfus has declared his party will oppose Tony Abbotts attempts to scrap the carbon tax, by stating that he got a mandate to defend good policy ? I MEAN HELLO, LABOR JUST GOT ITS @RSE KICKED LAST SATURDAY BY THE ELECTORATE AND HE SAYS THAT Grin

Does labor want to learn from its mistakes or just be as dismissive of its mistakes like richard dreyfus and as you seem to be John smith ???

I'm not dismissive of anything, I just don't believe that Abbott won a mandate to do what he likes .. the people voted for a change in government, they also voted for a senate that would stop Abbott railroading his policies through ... why do you pretend that only the vote in the house of representatives matters and the vote in the senate can be dismissed ?

Im not pretending anything, Abbott pretty much made it clear he wants to scrap the carbon tax he said it many times in slogans and sentences that people like yourself and lefties mocked, but Tony abbott won the trust of the australian people last saturday with that stated message repeated many times.

and many of the senators also made clear their opposition to scrapping the carbon tax, and they won the trust of their electorates ... you seem to think that Abbotts vote is somehow worth more than anyone else voted in

Quite frankly i believe the senate needs to be reformed as others as suggested to clearly stop the confusion of the measure of any mandate itself, will that happen is another thing.

Ohh, so it doesn't work to your liking so suddenly we change it? Why weren't you calling for a change when Rudd tried to pass his ETS?

The people didn't just vote for Abbott , they also voted for the senate ... for you to claim that only Abbotts vote count is pure ignorance of how our system works.

By the way, Mandates aren't real, it is purely something politicians invented to push through their agendas.

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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