Australian Politics Forum - spineless apologetics

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #525 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 8:55am Read what I actually posted Gandalf. It was a very simple statement. Not sure why everyone is having such trouble with it.
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Soren

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #526 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:38am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:07pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

Freediver, what do you mean by Turkey being "on the border of where historical Islam reached"? (ie, what is "historical islam"?)

It is obvious that he means that the Turkey was the historical "high water mark" of Islamic expansion in Eastern Europe. Of course, using the term "Turkey" confuses the matter because the Ottoman Empire extended into the Balkans, reaching Vienna, which is far outside the borders of today's nation of Turkey. FD I've noted before likes to play a little fast and loose with his claims about history. Roll Eyes

So how does this not agree with 'Turkey is the westernmost limit of Islam'??

Keep it short and to the piont, if you are able to. (fingers crossed)

My goodness! A civil response. How out of character for you!

Depends if he is referring to the Ottoman Empire or the nation of Turkey, as I've pointed out already, Soren. Reading comprehension problems? Roll Eyes

The difference is insignificant. Turkey or territory controlled by Turks.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #527 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 1:23pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 8:55am:

Read what I actually posted Gandalf. It was a very simple statement. Not sure why everyone is having such trouble with it.

Yes I know what you wrote, and it is not so much a simple statement, as a simplistic one - which is why it is problematic. The lengths you will go to to maintain this silly position that the "heart" of the muslim world supports stoning and killing apostates, even when its demonstrated that great swathes of the muslim world - including a large majority of the largest muslim country on earth - oppose it, gets rather tedious. Most Indonesians oppose it - oh that doesn't count because its on the geographic periphery of "the muslim world" (whatever that means); most Turks oppose it - oh that doesn't count because Turkey is "on the border" of where historic islam reached.

How pathetic can you get?

Fact is Indonesia is the largest muslim country on earth - over 60% of muslims live not in the middle east, but in south and south-east asia, and these populations overwhelmingly have secular/democratic attitudes. In population terms, the centre of gravity in the muslim world is here, not in the middle east. But we'll ignore what the attitudes of the great majority of muslims because of their geographic location Tongue

How absurd can you get? What you term the "heart" of the muslim world represents a minority of the muslim population, as well as a minority view. You do realise the wahabists who control Saudi Arabia are universally reviled throughout the muslim world - including throughout the middle east right? Salafists, or in your language, the "pro-stoners" are universally rejected throughout the muslim world.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #528 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 1:48pm

Quote:

Yes I know what you wrote, and it is not so much a simple statement, as a simplistic one - which is why it is problematic. The lengths you will go to to maintain this silly position that the "heart" of the muslim world supports stoning and killing apostates, even when its demonstrated that great swathes of the muslim world - including a large majority of the largest muslim country on earth - oppose it, gets rather tedious.

As Muslims so often complain, modern borders were largely created by non-Muslims. The fact that Indonesia is currently the largest Muslim country by population is an accident of history. The fact is, it is at the far end of Islam's historical reach, yet even it is full of little Hitlers.

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Most Indonesians oppose it - oh that doesn't count because its on the geographic periphery of "the muslim world"

The majority of Indonesians are opposed to the most barbaric aspects of Shariah law. Still, there are 70 million little Hitler's on our doorstep. The fact that the rest are little Musolinis instead doesn't really prove anything, except that there is a small amount of diversity in Islam's barbarity.

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(whatever that means); most Turks oppose it - oh that doesn't count because Turkey is "on the border" of where historic islam reached.

Again, read what I actually wrote. You asked me how Turkey fits in. I told you. It really is that simple.

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Fact is Indonesia is the largest muslim country on earth - over 60% of muslims live not in the middle east, but in south and south-east asia, and these populations overwhelmingly have secular/democratic attitudes.

Because they would rather put people in jail for non-crimes than stone them to death? When can we expect to see a gay pride rally in Jakarta?

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In population terms, the centre of gravity in the muslim world is here, not in the middle east.

I think your maths is a little out there Gandalf. You seem to be saying that 40% do live in the middle east. How much of the rest live in Africa?

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What you term the "heart" of the muslim world represents a minority of the muslim population

Wait a minute, are you - a Muslim - now claiming that the middle east is not the 'heart' of Islam? Which way do you face when you pray? Would it be more appropriate to label it the penis of Islam? Maybe the arsehole?

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You do realise the wahabists who control Saudi Arabia are universally reviled throughout the muslim world - including throughout the middle east right? Salafists, or in your language, the "pro-stoners" are universally rejected throughout the muslim world.

Universally? You just pointed out that 70 million Indonesians want to start chopping people's heads off for saying the wrong thing and stoning disobedient child brides to death.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #529 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 3:38pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 1:48pm:

Again, read what I actually wrote. You asked me how Turkey fits in. I told you. It really is that simple.

You tried to explain away the fact that a significant muslim country that lies right at the heart of the historic islamic world is a progressive secular democracy - it really is that simple.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 1:48pm:

Wait a minute, are you - a Muslim - now claiming that the middle east is not the 'heart' of Islam? Which way do you face when you pray?

Nice subtle changing of terms there - note I said "heart of the muslim world" and you changed it to the "heart of islam". Nice.

80% of muslims now live outside the arab middle east, and 60% of them live in south and south-east asia - from Turkey to Indonesia. The vast majority of these countries are secular and democratic. The "heart" of the muslim world has obviously moved from the arab middle east during the early days of islam, to non-arab areas of south asia - just as the "heart" of the christian world has changed over the centuries from the levant to all over the western world.

As for "the heart of islam", I would say apart from the spiritual centre of Mecca, islam's "heart" is not defined by any worldly geographical location. I certainly wouldn't consider Ryadh or Damascus as any more or less "the heart" of islam than Jakarta or Rabat - just as Yadda or most other devout christians don't consider Jerusalem or Bethlehem, or even Rome as particularly symbolic of the "heart" of christianity.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Grendel

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #530 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 3:45pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:07pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

Freediver, what do you mean by Turkey being "on the border of where historical Islam reached"? (ie, what is "historical islam"?)

It is obvious that he means that the Turkey was the historical "high water mark" of Islamic expansion in Eastern Europe. Of course, using the term "Turkey" confuses the matter because the Ottoman Empire extended into the Balkans, reaching Vienna, which is far outside the borders of today's nation of Turkey. FD I've noted before likes to play a little fast and loose with his claims about history. Roll Eyes

So how does this not agree with 'Turkey is the westernmost limit of Islam'??

Keep it short and to the piont, if you are able to. (fingers crossed)

My goodness! A civil response. How out of character for you!

Depends if he is referring to the Ottoman Empire or the nation of Turkey, as I've pointed out already, Soren. Reading comprehension problems? Roll Eyes

That's bwian's idea of clearing things up.

[personal attack deleted]

next it'll be depends on where you start east on the globe Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 3:52pm by polite_gandalf »

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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #531 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 4:10pm

Quote:

You tried to explain away the fact that a significant muslim country that lies right at the heart of the historic islamic world is a progressive secular democracy - it really is that simple.

No I didn't. I simply answered your question about where Turkey fits in. You asked. I answered. You started reading all sorts of things into my post that simply were not there. There are very clear reasons why Turkey has rejected much of Islam. If you want to know what they are, I am happy to tell you, but don't ask a different question and pretend I am answering the same one.

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Nice subtle changing of terms there - note I said "heart of the muslim world" and you changed it to the "heart of islam". Nice.

What's the difference? Am I using a term that has some kind of special meaning in Islam?

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80% of muslims now live outside the arab middle east

Wow, up from 60% a few hours ago. Can't wait to get out, can they?

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The vast majority of these countries are secular and democratic.

I notice you left out the term freedom again.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #532 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 4:48pm technically you were incorrect gandalf. but I truly can't be bothered anymore... have fun
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #533 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:02pm Soren wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:38am: The difference is insignificant. Turkey or territory controlled by Turks. No, it is significant, Soren. Areas once controlled by the Turks are now not part of Turkey.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #534 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:48pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 4:10pm:

You asked. I answered. You started reading all sorts of things into my post that simply were not there.

Yup. So when I pointed out that Indonesia is a secular, democratic (and yes, free) society, and you retorted by saying 'oh but it doesn't count because Indonesia is so far from the "heart" of islam' - you totally weren't insinuating that there are no secular, democratic and free societies in the "heart" of islam. And when I pointed out that there are secular, democratic and free societies in the "heart" of islam (Turkey), you totally didn't try and explain it away and claim Turkey doesn't really count when talking about the "heart" of islam. Tongue

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 4:10pm:

There are very clear reasons why Turkey has rejected much of Islam.

lol - there you go again. All islamic countries in the "heart" of islam are fundamentalist, pro-stoning etc, except of course for the ones that don't count. Tongue

Of course there are "very clear reasons" why Turkey has rejected fundamentalism, but not one of them change the fact that muslims demonstrably can and have become secular and progressive.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 4:10pm:

What's the difference? Am I using a term that has some kind of special meaning in Islam?

If you ask me what is the "heart of islam" I will say the Quran, and the 5 pillars and following Prophet Muhammad. It also would include one physical location - namely Mecca. If I am talking about the "heart of the muslim world", I am obviously talking about muslim populations and their geographic locations.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 4:10pm:

Wow, up from 60% a few hours ago. Can't wait to get out, can they?

I thought you might have trouble with this one after your last reading comprehension fail.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 3:38pm:

80% of muslims now live outside the arab middle east, and 60% of them live in south and south-east asia - from Turkey to Indonesia.

If you're still having difficulty with the stats, here you go:

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South & Southeast Asia 1,005,507,000 24.8 62.1%
Middle East-North Africa 321,869,000 91.2 19.9%
Sub-Saharan Africa 242,544,000 29.6 15.0%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Clear?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #535 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:06pm Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:02pm: Soren wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:38am: The difference is insignificant. Turkey or territory controlled by Turks. No, it is significant, Soren. Areas once controlled by the Turks are now not part of Turkey. So?
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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #536 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:27pm

Quote:

Yup. So when I pointed out that Indonesia is a secular, democratic (and yes, free) society, and you retorted by saying 'oh but it doesn't count because Indonesia is so far from the "heart" of islam'

You really should stick to what I actually post.

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you totally weren't insinuating that there are no secular, democratic and free societies in the "heart" of islam

This would be a lot quicker if it didn't take me ten pages every time I had to explain what I did not say.

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And when I pointed out that there are secular, democratic and free societies in the "heart" of islam (Turkey), you totally didn't try and explain it away and claim Turkey doesn't really count when talking about the "heart" of islam.

You asked me where Turkey fit in. I made two very simple, and correct statements - that it is much closer to the heart of Islam, yet also on it's traditional boundary. You seem to have completely ignored the first statement and taken up informing me of it at every opportunity, while reading whatever you want into the second.

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lol - there you go again. All islamic countries in the "heart" of islam are fundamentalist, pro-stoning etc, except of course for the ones that don't count.

No, there you go again, completely ignoring what I actually said, and inserting your own reality.

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Of course there are "very clear reasons" why Turkey has rejected fundamentalism

That's what I just said Gandalf. Why is it that every time I say something, you pretend I said something completely different, then take it upon yourself to inform me of what I just said?

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but not one of them change the fact that muslims demonstrably can and have become secular and progressive.

Progressive compared to what? To Muhammed and his pedophilic, womanising, warmongering, theiving ways?

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If you ask me what is the "heart of islam" I will say the Quran, and the 5 pillars and following Prophet Muhammad.

Even if it was in a geographic context?

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I thought you might have trouble with this one after your last reading comprehension fail.

Gandalf, this is what it looks when you quote what people actually say:

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over 60% of muslims live not in the middle east

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80% of muslims now live outside the arab middle east

See, that wasn't so hard was it?

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #537 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:33pm Why are Muslims not trusted? The question for the age (once again).
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Brian Ross

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #538 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:38pm

Soren wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:06pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:02pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:38am:

The difference is insignificant. Turkey or territory controlled by Turks.

No, it is significant, Soren. Areas once controlled by the Turks are now not part of Turkey.

So?

Therefore, "Turkey" is no longer the border of historical Islam. Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #539 - Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:40pm Soren wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:33pm: Why are Muslims not trusted? I trust Muslims. Quote: The question for the age (once again). Only if you're a bigot.
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