Australian Politics Forum - spineless apologetics

Stratos

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #585 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 8:39am

Oh nice, moving the goalposts so early must take a lot of effort.

You said "why aren't Muslims commenting on this"

I showed you that three leaders within Islamic political parties have clearly condemned them

You ignore it anyway, like usual. I'm not saying it is sufficient, I'm just answering the question you asked, and showing you where you are mistaken.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Yadda

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #586 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 8:45am

Stratos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 8:18am:

Adamant wrote on Dec 27^th, 2013 at 11:40pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 27^th, 2013 at 2:52pm:

The historical ignorance matters because in a vast belt of land from Morocco to Pakistan there is scarcely a single country in which Christians can worship entirely without harassment. The recent suicide bomb attack on Christian worshippers at the All Saints Church in the old quarter of Peshawar, Pakistan – around 600 people were eating and playing on the grass after a service when they were ripped to pieces by the two Islamist suicide bombers. 78 people Christians were killed, including 34 women and seven children – was only a spectacular expression of the phenomenon

Nocommentotherthantosaywhynocommentfromthemuslims.

#1

Quote:

“We will go after those who committed this tragedy,” Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan, who said 34 women and seven children died in the attack, told lawmakers today in the National Assembly. “We will bring them to justice.”

#2

Quote:

Sharif earlier condemned the attacks, expressed solidarity with the Christian community and pledged to provide medical and emergency assistance to the victims

#3

Quote:

“Those who did this were not humans,” Imran Khan, whose party runs Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, told reporters outside the hospital in Peshawar. “I don’t think we should give up efforts to find those groups who want to talk. We need to know who wants to talk.

#1, #2, #3,

Public hand-wringing, from the moslem authorities in Pakistan.

And every time there is a new terrorist outrage in Pakistan, against a minority group/community ?

We see yet more public hand-wringing from the moslem authorities in Pakistan.

Q's....
1/ If Pakistan is a competent moslem jurisdiction, and,
2/ if these terrorist outrages are UN-ISLAMIC,

then why do such terrorist outrages [against a minority group/community] so frequently occur?

And why are the moslem authorities in Pakistan unable to stop such terrorist outrages, if such out terrorist outrages are UN-ISLAMIC [not authorised, and are unlawful in Sharia law] ?

A.
For a devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.

Terrorising Allah's enemies, is LAWFUL in ISLAM.

Slaughtering those who are not moslems [if it serves ISLAM's interests], is LAWFUL in ISLAM.

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

Allah's Apostle said,
"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."
hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."
hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-p...

"Allah Akbar !! Allah Akbar !! Allah Akbar !! "

[edit: I have changed the spacing and font to make it more readable. Please remember as per the riot-act - keep "crayons" to a minimum.]

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« Last Edit: Dec 28^th, 2013 at 4:15pm by polite_gandalf »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lord Herbert

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #587 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 10:39am

Stratos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 8:18am:

Quote:

“Those who did this were not humans,” Imran Khan, whose party runs Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, told reporters outside the hospital in Peshawar. “I don’t think we should give up efforts to find those groups who want to talk. We need to know who wants to talk.

Own-goal again for bringing up Imran Khan.

There have been three big massacres of the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect in Pakistan, and yet, as a politician Imran Khan refused to ask for the laws against them to be rescinded.

link

link

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Soren

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #588 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:31pm

Stratos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 8:39am:

Oh nice, moving the goalposts so early must take a lot of effort.

You said "why aren't Muslims commenting on this"

I showed you that three leaders within Islamic political parties have clearly condemned them

You ignore it anyway, like usual. I'm not saying it is sufficient, I'm just answering the question you asked, and showing you where you are mistaken.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

And the killing and persecution and harrasment of Christians under Muslim rule continues..

But bed-wetters like you are reflexively worried only about what all this killing and maltreatment in the name of Islam does to - Islam's reputation. Freaking twisted priorities.

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Stratos

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #589 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:42pm

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

I didn't say anything of the sort.

Oh really?
Adamant wrote on Dec 27^th, 2013 at 11:40pm:

Nocommentotherthantosaywhynocommentfromthemuslims.

Someone else must be using your account. get right on that.

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

And the killing and persecution and harrasment of Christians under Muslim rule continues..

Lifting those goalposts must be hard. Get yadda to give you a hand, he's got some practice too.

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

But bed-wetters like you are reflexively worried only about what all this killing and maltreatment in the name of Islam does to - Islam's reputation. Freaking twisted priorities.

I know you get upset at getting things wrong. It's OK.

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

Own-goal again for bringing up Imran Khan.

There have been three big massacres of the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect in Pakistan, and yet, as a politician Imran Khan refused to ask for the laws against them to be rescinded.

Nevermind Yadda, Herbert will help you out. Soren asked why haven't Muslims spoken out condemning this (or whoever hacked his account) and I provided him with evidence to the contrary. By the time you have all moved the goalposts so much I can understand why you would think that's an own goal Herbert, it can get a bit confusing.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #590 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:56pm You really should leave these arguments to your betters, Stratos. Playing the apologist for Islam and orthodox Muslims is really not your forte. Stick to footy, or whatever.
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Datalife

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #591 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:57pm

Stratos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

Lifting those goalposts must be hard. Get yadda to give you a hand, he's got some practice too.

LOL moving goalposts eh? You cannot post anything about the latest Islamic inspired atrocity without spineless apologists coming forth form all corners to distract with counter claims about the IRA or the crusades.

For some reason the apologists refuse to countenance any discussion whose verdict might be culpability of the religion of peace. I have no clue why this is so but I suspect it is tied to the west hating nature of ardent leftist moaners.

Hell Brainless is on record for refusing, yep he will refuse to criticise the religion of peace. Of course he will slip the slipper into any aspect of the west or the US, but for him and fellow travellers in idiocy, Islam is verboten.

Beyond criticism.

Makes you wonder how self loathing and hating of the culture that has fostered them these clowns can get.

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"If they’re out there in the high seas, what you would do is seek to turn them back through the agency of the Australian Navy".

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Soren

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #592 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 1:35pm

Stratos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

I didn't say anything of the sort.

Oh really?
Adamant wrote on Dec 27^th, 2013 at 11:40pm:

Nocommentotherthantosaywhynocommentfromthemuslims.

Someone else must be using your account. get right on that.

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

And the killing and persecution and harrasment of Christians under Muslim rule continues..

Lifting those goalposts must be hard. Get yadda to give you a hand, he's got some practice too.

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

But bed-wetters like you are reflexively worried only about what all this killing and maltreatment in the name of Islam does to - Islam's reputation. Freaking twisted priorities.

I know you get upset at getting things wrong. It's OK.

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

Own-goal again for bringing up Imran Khan.

There have been three big massacres of the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect in Pakistan, and yet, as a politician Imran Khan refused to ask for the laws against them to be rescinded.

Nevermind Yadda, Herbert will help you out. Soren asked why haven't Muslims spoken out condemning this (or whoever hacked his account) and I provided him with evidence to the contrary. By the time you have all moved the goalposts so much I can understand why you would think that's an own goal Herbert, it can get a bit confusing.

DO you think adamant and me are the same?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #593 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 2:34pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Quote:

So what should this be about then?

How about sucking it up and being objective?

Thats not really saying anything FD. Is calling them "little nazis" and questioning why someone wouldn't see them as the same threat as the imperial Japanese during WWII your idea of being objective?

As I keep saying, I'm not making excuses, merely looking for an explanation for why their responses to these issues are so at odds with their demonstrated behaviour? Why isn't there, and never has been anything resembling a serious public debate on this issue in Malaysia - since the majority of the Malay population supposedly want these punishments?

Quote:

Remember, Malaysia also has serious problems with Islamic extremism and terrorism.

No, really they don't. Can you cite a single instance of terrorism in Malaysia since the communist insurgency which ended in 1960?

Good grief, this has to be your all time most stupid statement FD - and thats really saying something.

Quote:

Who is to say there isn't? Do you expect me to take your word for it

Thats ridiculous. You don't have to trust my word for it, even though I follow Malaysian politics closely and know for a fact you are so far off the mark its not funny - you just need to produce some evidence that it is happening. Its not called "public debate" for nothing. If there was a public debate going on, you would be able to find some record of it happening.

Quote:

I find it very hard to believe that in a democracy where the population is split nearly 50-50 on an issue that there would be no debate on it.

When we hear hoofbeats, we can either scratch our heads and wonder where all the zebras are, or we can go with the obvious and put it down to horses. When there is no sign of a public debate going on about a particular issue, it generally means that it is not a hot issue that people particularly care about.

People can act all principled on an issue they know only from stories, and know will never have any chance of becoming implemented in their society. But like all these things, if and when a serious debate actually arises, and the issue changes from abstract to "actual possibility", public opinion will change dramatically.

Quote:

You are trying to say it is not a problem every time you insist that these people do not actually think what they say they think

Not true. Refusing to label them as "little nazis" is not saying its still not a problem.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #594 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 6:16pm There are no jokes - or self-criticism in Islam. Interfaith dialogue is about non-Muslims praising and defending Islam, followed by Muslims praising and defending Islam. The Koran and Allah and Mohammed are above critical discussion.
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Yadda

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #595 - Dec 28^th, 2013 at 11:56pm

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 6:16pm:

There are no jokes - or self-criticism in Islam.
Interfaith dialogue is about non-Muslims praising and defending Islam, followed by Muslims praising and defending Islam.

The Koran and Allah and Mohammed are above critical discussion.

The Koran and Allah and Mohammed, etc, are above critical scrutiny, too. Wink

Because ISLAM, is Allah's already perfect religion.

Its true!!!!!! Tongue

So there is absolutely no rational reason why, something which is already acknowledged as being perfect, should be subjected to critical scrutiny. Tongue

It all makes perfect sense! Cheesy

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Pete Waldo

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #596 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 12:08am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 2:34pm:

\No, really they don't. Can you cite a single instance of terrorism in Malaysia since the communist insurgency which ended in 1960?

I suppose you don't consider the persecution of Ahmadiyya is intended to terrorize the survivors into leaving their faith? YouTube search - ahmadiyya persecution malaysia

Now Google search - churches burned malaysia
google.com/#q=churches+burned+malaysia

Now you may not think burning churches is an act of terrorism - since Islam's goal is to ensure a future in which none has the right to be worshiped except Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" - but I'm going to guess that most of the rest of us would call it terrorism. In the mold of one of the most consummate - and conveniently self-admitted - terrorists in the history of mankind.

Qur'an Surah 33:26 Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza

But of course it was Muhammad that "took down the People of the Scripture Book", not his alter-ego (the Arabian pagan deity) "Allah" that slaughtered those innocent, faithful, peaceful, productive Jews.
brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

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« Last Edit: Dec 29^th, 2013 at 12:13am by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #597 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:28am

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 12:08am:

I suppose you don't consider the persecution of Ahmadiyya is intended to terrorize the survivors into leaving their faith? YouTube search - ahmadiyya persecution malaysia

No. Certainly not a "serious problem" as FD described it. A couple of churches have been vandalised over a period of about 5 years and how many people have been killed or injured? Precisely zero. No, I wouldn't describe that as a terrorist problem, and I definitely wouldn't describe it as a "serious" terrorist problem. I would describe Pakistan and Iraq as having a "serious" terrorist problem where 10s of thousands of people are slaughtered every year.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #598 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am

Quote:

Thats not really saying anything FD. Is calling them "little nazis" and questioning why someone wouldn't see them as the same threat as the imperial Japanese during WWII your idea of being objective?

I did not do that Gandalf. This would be much easier for you if you simply quoted what I actually posted.

Quote:

As I keep saying, I'm not making excuses, merely looking for an explanation for why their responses to these issues are so at odds with their demonstrated behaviour?

There is no contradiction.

Quote:

Why isn't there, and never has been anything resembling a serious public debate on this issue in Malaysia - since the majority of the Malay population supposedly want these punishments?

The majority of Muslims do. I have no idea whether that makes a majority of the whole population.

Quote:

No, really they don't. Can you cite a single instance of terrorism in Malaysia since the communist insurgency which ended in 1960?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Malaysia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Islamiyah

Quote:

Thats ridiculous. You don't have to trust my word for it, even though I follow Malaysian politics closely and know for a fact you are so far off the mark its not funny

Yet you also refuse to believe that the majority of Malaysian Muslims support stoning adulterers to death and death for apostasy. I'm not sure how you "follow" Malaysian politics but the result is self delusion.

Quote:

you just need to produce some evidence that it is happening. Its not called "public debate" for nothing. If there was a public debate going on, you would be able to find some record of it happening.

It's a bit difficult if they speak a different language and the government strictly controls what is published. In any case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Malaysia#Conversion_from_Islam

In April 2000, the state of Perlis passed a sharia law subjecting Islamic "deviants" and apostates to 1 year of "rehabilitation" (under the Constitution, religion, including sharia law, is a state matter). Leaders of the opposition Islamic party, PAS, have stated the penalty for apostasy — after the apostates are given a period of time to repent and they do not repent — is death.

Does that count as public debate?

Quote:

People can act all principled on an issue they know only from stories

Are you saying Malaysians are so stupid they do not know what it means to kill someone?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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ian

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #599 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:33am

so, FD says Malaysian Muslims want to stone adulterers to death and execute those convicted of apostasy. so why aren't they doing it? If they have such strong opinions then what is to stop them putting it into action? The will is (allegedly) there, the ability under sharia law is there, so whats going on? Where are all the stonings and beheadings? even 1 stoning or beheading?

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