Australian Politics Forum - spineless apologetics

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #600 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:44am

Quote:

so, FD says Malaysian Muslims want to stone adulterers to death and execute those convicted of apostasy

No Ian. Malaysian Muslims say that Malaysian Muslims want to stone adulterers to death and execute those convicted of apostasy. Ian on the other hand seems to think that Malaysian Muslims are not qualified to comment on the opinions of Malaysian Muslims. He knows better.

Quote:

so why aren't they doing it?

I see it is a bit too subtle for you. They want the law changed. There are already plenty of messed up laws on Malaysia.

Quote:

If they have such strong opinions then what is to stop them putting it into action?

Democracy. Plus self interest. The problem with executing apostates is that there is disagreement even among Muslims as to who is an apostate. For example, we recently had Abu explaining that Shites are apostates and should get the death penalty. Obviously a shite is not going to vote for the death penalty for apostates in a Sunni majority country, even if they think apostates should get the death penalty. I have already explained this many times.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Grendel

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #601 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:45am

Quote:

KAMPUNG PULAU MELAKA, Malaysia (Reuters) – Malaysia’s Islamist opposition party called on non-Muslims on Thursday to back its election campaign to apply strict sharia law, including amputations and stonings, for the country’s Muslims.

Parti Islam se-Malaysia (PAS) is trying to broaden its appeal beyond the predominantly Muslim heartland at the next election, which is expected by political experts to be called by end-March and to be fought partly on the issue of rising street crime.

Back to top

IP Logged

Stratos

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 4725

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #602 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:47am

ian wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:33am:

so, FD says Malaysian Muslims want to stone adulterers to death and execute those convicted of apostasy. so why aren't they doing it? If they have such strong opinions then what is to stop them putting it into action? The will is (allegedly) there, the ability under sharia law is there, so whats going on? Where are all the stonings and beheadings? even 1 stoning or beheading?

Ditto Indonesia. The country with the most Muslims in the world, and not one person executed for apostasy, blasphemy or adultery, yet several executed for Islamic Terrorism.

Back to top

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

IP Logged

ian

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 9451

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #603 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:52am

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:44am:

I see it is a bit too subtle for you. They want the law changed. There are already plenty of messed up laws on Malaysia.

some fundamentalist states in Malaysia already have sharia law, no need to have the law changed. try again.

Quote:

Democracy. Plus self interest. The problem with executing apostates is that there is disagreement even among Muslims as to who is an apostate. For example, we recently had Abu explaining that Shites are apostates and should get the death penalty. Obviously a shite is not going to vote for the death penalty for apostates in a Sunni majority country, even if they think apostates should get the death penalty. I have already explained this many times.

So, whats it all about then, the Muslims themselves know its never going to happen. Easy to express an opinion FD if you know its never going to happen isn't it? Destroys your whole argument unfortunately. Lot of hoo ha over nothing, we still don't know the context in which these questions were asked.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #604 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:29am

Quote:

some fundamentalist states in Malaysia already have sharia law, no need to have the law changed. try again.

Is it really that hard for you to understand?

Quote:

So, whats it all about then, the Muslims themselves know its never going to happen.

That's not exactly true but, is it?

Quote:

Easy to express an opinion FD if you know its never going to happen isn't it?

It is easy to express an opinion regardless of whether you are going to get your way. Not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Quote:

Destroys your whole argument unfortunately.

This should be interesting. Please explain.

Quote:

Lot of hoo ha over nothing, we still don't know the context in which these questions were asked.

It was in the context of a survey of Muslim's opinions. The only reason you don;t know is because you are too lazy to follow the links and read for yourself.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Lord Herbert

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 34441
Gender: male

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #605 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 12:07pm

ian wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:33am:

so, FD says Malaysian Muslims want to stone adulterers to death and execute those convicted of apostasy. so why aren't they doing it? If they have such strong opinions then what is to stop them putting it into action? The will is (allegedly) there, the ability under sharia law is there, so whats going on? Where are all the stonings and beheadings? even 1 stoning or beheading?

So why don't they remove it from their law books?

Could it be that they dare not do so because this would be seen as judicial apostasy and a secular heresy against Allah's Will?

No matter how much you'd like to put lipstick on this pig, it still remains that Islam is why these laws exist in the first place.

If the Malaysian government believed it would cause no violent backlash from a sizable minority ~ they would have removed these draconian penalties from the statute books ages ago.

Back to top

IP Logged

ian

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 9451

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #606 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 1:23pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 12:07pm:

ian wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:33am:

so, FD says Malaysian Muslims want to stone adulterers to death and execute those convicted of apostasy. so why aren't they doing it? If they have such strong opinions then what is to stop them putting it into action? The will is (allegedly) there, the ability under sharia law is there, so whats going on? Where are all the stonings and beheadings? even 1 stoning or beheading?

So why don't they remove it from their law books?

Could it be that they dare not do so because this would be seen as judicial apostasy and a secular heresy against Allah's Will?

No matter how much you'd like to put lipstick on this pig, it still remains that Islam is why these laws exist in the first place.

If the Malaysian government believed it would cause no violent backlash from a sizable minority ~ they would have removed these draconian penalties from the statute books ages ago.

Like FD you completely misunderstand what sharia law is. There are no "statute" books in regard to sharia . Why is it my job to continunally have to educate you people on these topics, why don't you just do a bit of basic research beore you enter into the argument.

Back to top

IP Logged

ian

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 9451

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #607 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 1:26pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:29am:

It was in the context of a survey of Muslim's opinions. The only reason you don;t know is because you are too lazy to follow the links and read for yourself.

Ive followed the links which do not answer my questions. If you have any further information on exactly how this survey was conducted, i.e. representative sample base, error margin, which specific areas etc. You know, all the questions that an intelligent thinking person would want to know, then please post them.

Back to top

IP Logged

ian

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 9451

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #608 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 1:28pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:29am:

Quote:

some fundamentalist states in Malaysia already have sharia law, no need to have the law changed. try again.

Is it really that hard for you to understand?

.

Its exactly as I say, some fundamentalist states in Malaysia already have sharia law, no need to have the law changed , are you disputing this?

Back to top

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21612
A cat with a view

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #609 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 2:13pm

ian wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:29am:

Quote:

some fundamentalist states in Malaysia already have sharia law, no need to have the law changed. try again.

Is it really that hard for you to understand?

.

Its exactly as I say,

1/ some fundamentalist states in Malaysia already have sharia law,

2/ no need to have the law changed ,

3/ are you disputing this?

3/ Yes.

1/ It is a lie. i.e. Question, are some fundamentalist states in Malaysia a little bit pregnant ?

2/ If this is so, then why don't some fundamentalist states in Malaysia implement a 'full term' ['delivered' by Allah] complete Sharia law .....[and not just the 'a little bit pregnant' Sharia law] ?

Yes, yes, i went 3, 1, and then 2.

Because i'm a rightly guided Christian [and not a moslem].

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #610 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 2:28pm Ian I am still wondering what point you are trying to make about some states having shariah law. It's hard to dispute your claims if they do not even make sense.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21612 A cat with a view	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #611 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 2:35pm freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 2:28pm: Ian I am still wondering what point you are trying to make about some states having shariah law. It's hard to dispute your claims if they do not even make sense. Ah, so there is a method to his madness then ?
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #612 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 3:30pm They may be 'spineless' ~ but they're certainly not 'spinless'. In fact, that's their primary Tool of Trade in these kinds of thread. Endless 'spin'. Spineless spinsters.
Back to top	IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #613 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 4:21pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Quote:
Thats not really saying anything FD. Is calling them "little nazis" and questioning why someone wouldn't see them as the same threat as the imperial Japanese during WWII your idea of being objective?

I did not do that Gandalf. This would be much easier for you if you simply quoted what I actually posted.

You definitely did call them little nazis, and either made a comparison with WWII Japanese imperialists, or made a completely irrelevant mention of them.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

The majority of Muslims do. I have no idea whether that makes a majority of the whole population.

Malay = Malay-muslim population. Or in other words, 'Malay' and 'muslim Malaysian' are one in the same. Malaysian = Malaysian citizen. Please familiarise yourself with official Malaysian racial classifications if you want to keep discussing this.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

No, really they don't. Can you cite a single instance of terrorism in Malaysia since the communist insurgency which ended in 1960?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Malaysia

Oh there you go - one incident by unknown assailants in 1977. I stand corrected Tongue

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Yet you also refuse to believe that the majority of Malaysian Muslims support stoning adulterers to death and death for apostasy.

Gee whiz FD, you really should quote what I actually say FD (see what I did there? Wink

). Nowhere did I ever say or indicate that I refuse to believe the majority of Malays support these punishments.

What I do refuse to do though is to demonize them and label them "little nazis" and rant on about them being a threat to our way of life - because of these beliefs.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Malaysia#Conversion_from_Islam

In April 2000, the state of Perlis passed a sharia law subjecting Islamic "deviants" and apostates to 1 year of "rehabilitation" (under the Constitution, religion, including sharia law, is a state matter). Leaders of the opposition Islamic party, PAS, have stated the penalty for apostasy — after the apostates are given a period of time to repent and they do not repent — is death.

Does that count as public debate?

Not at all. No one takes PAS seriously when they say these things, and everyone - especially PAS - knows they don't have a dogs chance in hell of ever implementing death for apostasy. Which is why they have considerably toned down their rhetoric in recent years (your quote was from 2000). Note my key words serious debate. This is not a serious debate.

And nothing about stoning I noticed.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Are you saying Malaysians are so stupid they do not know what it means to kill someone?

No, I'm saying its very easy to be high and mighty about something they have never experienced and knowing for a fact it will never be implemented in their society. Put a stone in their hand, or ask them to condemn an actual adulterer, and it will doubtless be a completely different story.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #614 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 4:56pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 2:28pm:

Ian I am still wondering what point you are trying to make about some states having shariah law. It's hard to dispute your claims if they do not even make sense.

So why don't they have stoning and execution for apostasy then?

By the way - there is only one islamist controlled state - Kelantan. But definitely no stoning or executing apostates going on there.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged