Australian Politics Forum - spineless apologetics

freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #615 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm

Quote:

You definitely did call them little nazis, and either made a comparison with WWII Japanese imperialists, or made a completely irrelevant mention of them.

One more time for Gandalf. It was a question, directed at another member. The point of the question has already been explained to you several times.

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Malay = Malay-muslim population. Or in other words, 'Malay' and 'muslim Malaysian' are one in the same. Malaysian = Malaysian citizen. Please familiarise yourself with official Malaysian racial classifications if you want to keep discussing this.

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Oh there you go - one incident by unknown assailants in 1977. I stand corrected

They also trained many of the Muslim terrorists now active in Indonesia and elsewhere. Malaysia is a bit of a breeding ground for them, much like Afghanistan under the taliban.

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Gee whiz FD, you really should quote what I actually say FD (see what I did there? Wink). Nowhere did I ever say or indicate that I refuse to believe the majority of Malays support these punishments.

What I do refuse to do though is to demonize them and label them "little nazis" and rant on about them being a threat to our way of life - because of these beliefs.

So why all the spin about how it is only an abstract concept?

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Not at all. No one takes PAS seriously when they say these things

Just like no-one took Hitler seriously about his final solution for the Jews - until he started slaughtering them. So now we have a majority of Muslims who support killing people, a major Islamic political party that is calling for people to be killed, and still Gandalf is making excuses and pretending it is not real.

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and everyone - especially PAS - knows they don't have a dogs chance in hell of ever implementing death for apostasy

They does not mean they do not sincerely support it. And I disagree that it could never happen. It probably won't, but things can change overnight in politics.

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Which is why they have considerably toned down their rhetoric in recent years (your quote was from 2000).

Grendel presented one from 2008, in which they actually called on non-Muslims to support the plan. Perhaps they argued the non-Muslims should support it because they know it will never happen.

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Note my key words serious debate. This is not a serious debate.

So a major Islamist political party calling for it is not serious? When does it get serious? How absurd are you willing to get in trying to make excuses for them?

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And nothing about stoning I noticed.

Grendel's quote mentioned stoning. And amputations. Please make up some more pissweak excuses for that one.

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No, I'm saying its very easy to be high and mighty about something they have never experienced and knowing for a fact it will never be implemented in their society. Put a stone in their hand, or ask them to condemn an actual adulterer, and it will doubtless be a completely different story.

I have responded to this point already. Supporting the death penalty is not the same as wanting to be the executioner, and you are either incredibly naive, or deliberately deceptive, in arguing this.

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So why don't they have stoning and execution for apostasy then?

Asked and answered - several times already, to both you and Ian.

Do you believe that Shariah law must involve the death penalty for apostasy? Do I really need to explain to you (of all people) how idiotic Ian's argument is?

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Pete Waldo

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #616 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:28am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 12:08am:

I suppose you don't consider the persecution of Ahmadiyya is intended to terrorize the survivors into leaving their faith? YouTube search - ahmadiyya persecution malaysia

No. Certainly not a "serious problem" as FD described it. A couple of churches have been vandalised over a period of about 5 years and how many people have been killed or injured? Precisely zero. No, I wouldn't describe that as a terrorist problem, and I definitely wouldn't describe it as a "serious" terrorist problem. I would describe Pakistan and Iraq as having a "serious" terrorist problem where 10s of thousands of people are slaughtered every year.

Only Pakistan and Iraq? What about Syria? What about Iran, and everywhere else we find the oppression and depression of Islam?
You seem to be saying that Islam is good in Malaysia even though they burn down churches, because it's less bad than everywhere else in the world, where we find the active, true, fundamental followers of the false prophet Muhammad engaged in spreading murder, mayhem and misery.
Yet somehow you can't seem to see that Muhammad's people follow Satan, even as you are compelled to prostrate yourself to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba five times a day.

Now please consider for a moment, what the world might be like, if everyone on earth followed the second greatest commandment given to Christians?

Mark 12:31

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

What if everyone in the world was doing the kinds of things that Christians are called to do around the world?

Like healing the sick and brokenhearted:
mercyships.org
And taking care of impoverished kids:
compassion.com
Freeing Islam's slaves:
youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc
And helping in emergencies, as well as helping to get the homeless back on their feet:
salvationarmy.org

John 13:35

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What if the world were like that, rather than 1/4 of the world following Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah", who loves those that engage in very thing you are running and hiding from - the very thing you are vainly wishing Islam is not:

Quran Surah 61:4

Truly allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.

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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #617 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:36pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

Quote:
Malay = Malay-muslim population. Or in other words, 'Malay' and 'muslim Malaysian' are one in the same. Malaysian = Malaysian citizen. Please familiarise yourself with official Malaysian racial classifications if you want to keep discussing this.

Grin

Why is that funny? You have been confused by the term "Malay" from the beginning of this discussion - I thought I should spell it out for you.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

They also trained many of the Muslim terrorists now active in Indonesia and elsewhere. Malaysia is a bit of a breeding ground for them, much like Afghanistan under the taliban.

uhuh - just like Afghanistan. Cheesy

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

So why all the spin about how it is only an abstract concept?

Again, read over what I actually said. Pointing out that believing in an abstract concept is different to supporting an actual policy that can be or is in place are two vastly different things - is not "refusing to believe that the majority of Malaysian Muslims support stoning adulterers to death and death for apostasy."

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

Just like no-one took Hitler seriously about his final solution for the Jews - until he started slaughtering them. So now we have a majority of Muslims who support killing people, a major Islamic political party that is calling for people to be killed

On the eve of the last election, Anwar Ibrahim made a last minute announcement that hudud punishment was not part of the People's Alliance platform (of which PAS is a member). Thats how popular he thought it was. In the election, the ruling BN party, who adopts a zero-tolerance policy towards hudud, collected 47% of the entire vote, while PAS collected 14%. While an exact ethnic breakdown is not known, both parties are always heavilly favoured by the ethnic Malays (muslims). So its pretty clear where Malay votes are actually going on the hudud issue when Malays have the opportunity to vote for it - as opposed to pontificating in a meaningless and consequence-free survey.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

So a major Islamist political party calling for it is not serious?

Correct. PAS had to be gagged by their coalition leader on the issue during the last election since it was seen as political suicide, while the leading BN party (who traditionally stand for Malays) proudly take a zero-tolerance policy against it - and get the majority Malay vote. You tell me where the political mileage on this issue is.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

I have responded to this point already. Supporting the death penalty is not the same as wanting to be the executioner, and you are either incredibly naive, or deliberately deceptive, in arguing this.

No, thats not what I'm talking about at all. "putting a stone in their hand" is just a figure of speech. Its about telling people that, with their support, this *CAN* actually happen - that there are x number of people - real people - awaiting sentencing for adultery - should they be stoned to death? The "no" campaign then plasters pictures of their faces in all the major papers and asks the public if they would vote "yes" and condemn them to a most torturous death. They call in experts to describe in grizzly detail what they will go through as rocks crush their bones and the length of time it will take for them to die. You can't tell me that after this sort of debate people will respond the same as when someone abstractly and impersonally asks them simply "should adulterers be stoned".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #618 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:28am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 12:08am:

I suppose you don't consider the persecution of Ahmadiyya is intended to terrorize the survivors into leaving their faith? YouTube search - ahmadiyya persecution malaysia

No. Certainly not a "serious problem" as FD described it. A couple of churches have been vandalised over a period of about 5 years and how many people have been killed or injured? Precisely zero. No, I wouldn't describe that as a terrorist problem, and I definitely wouldn't describe it as a "serious" terrorist problem. I would describe Pakistan and Iraq as having a "serious" terrorist problem where 10s of thousands of people are slaughtered every year.

Only Pakistan and Iraq? What about Syria? What about Iran, and everywhere else we find the oppression and depression of Islam? What about all the Islamic countries that murder citizens for blasphemy and apostasy?
You seem to be saying that Islam is good in Malaysia even though they burn down churches, because it's less bad than everywhere else in the world, where we find the active, true, fundamental followers of the false prophet Muhammad engaged in spreading murder, mayhem and misery.
Yet somehow you can't seem to see that Muhammad's people follow Satan, even as you are compelled to prostrate yourself to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba five times a day.

Now please consider for a moment, what the world might be like, if everyone on earth followed the second greatest commandment given to Christians?

Mark 12:31

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

What if everyone in the world was doing the kinds of things that Christians are called to do around the world?

Like healing the sick and brokenhearted:
mercyships.org
And taking care of impoverished kids:
compassion.com
Freeing Islam's slaves:
youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc
And helping in emergencies, as well as helping to get the homeless back on their feet:
salvationarmy.org

John 13:35

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What if the world were like that, rather than 1/4 of the world following Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah", who loves those that engage in very thing you are running and hiding from - the very thing you are vainly wishing Islam is not:

Quran Surah 61:4

Truly allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.

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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Pete Waldo

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #619 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:50pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 4:21pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Quote:
Thats not really saying anything FD. Is calling them "little nazis" and questioning why someone wouldn't see them as the same threat as the imperial Japanese during WWII your idea of being objective?

I did not do that Gandalf. This would be much easier for you if you simply quoted what I actually posted.

You definitely did call them little nazis, and either made a comparison with WWII Japanese imperialists, or made a completely irrelevant mention of them.

The Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem worked hand in hand with Hitler, toward their shared goal of genocide of Jews, with several Muslim SS divisions and an entire Islamic panzer division in Hitler's army. In other words Muslims WERE imperialist Nazis.

zionismchristian.com/hitler_and_mufti.htm

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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Stratos

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #620 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:51pm

Ooh fun, are we allowed to take things out of context again?

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:31pm:

Yet somehow you can't seem to see that Muhammad's people follow Satan, even as you are compelled to prostrate yourself to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba five times a day.

Oh come on, modern Christianity has a bunch of pagan objects involved. Extremely weak argument for a Christian to use. Also pagan=bad? since when and why, or is it just your opinion?

Or maybe it is the prostrating you don't like?

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While He was in one of the cities, behold, there was a man covered with leprosy; and when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

Nope, guess not.

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:31pm:

What if the world were like that, rather than 1/4 of the world following Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah", who loves those that engage in very thing you are running and hiding from - the very thing you are vainly wishing Islam is not:

Games up Gandalf. Everyone is saying you aren't a real Muslim so it must be true. Can't have shades of grey and all that now can we?

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 9:31pm:

Quran Surah 61:4 Truly allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.

How amusing you pick the one that says "battle array" when every other translation says rows or ranks.

I'm not sure of the context, but seeing as it comes directly after a passage about staying making sure to do what you say you will do, to be more about standing as one in faith than an actual physical fight

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #621 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:10pm

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Why is that funny? You have been confused by the term "Malay" from the beginning of this discussion - I thought I should spell it out for you.

Perhaps you should just speak plain English rather than expecting everyone to use the Malaysian governments official racial classification scheme.

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Again, read over what I actually said. Pointing out that believing in an abstract concept is different to supporting an actual policy that can be or is in place are two vastly different things - is not "refusing to believe that the majority of Malaysian Muslims support stoning adulterers to death and death for apostasy."

So they only support it abstractly, not in reality? I don't see any difference. You have just chosen a convoluted way of saying they do not believe what they say they believe.

Quote:

On the eve of the last election, Anwar Ibrahim made a last minute announcement that hudud punishment was not part of the People's Alliance platform (of which PAS is a member). Thats how popular he thought it was. In the election, the ruling BN party, who adopts a zero-tolerance policy towards hudud, collected 47% of the entire vote, while PAS collected 14%. While an exact ethnic breakdown is not known, both parties are always heavilly favoured by the ethnic Malays (muslims). So its pretty clear where Malay votes are actually going on the hudud issue when Malays have the opportunity to vote for it - as opposed to pontificating in a meaningless and consequence-free survey.

An election is never a referendum on a single issue. Are you trying to argue that this proves it will never happen?

Didn't you just claim that you follow Malaysian politics and that you know there is no serious debate on the issue? And yet here you are presenting evidence that before the last election, Anwar Ibrahim himself had to issue a statement about it because member parties of his own coalition openly support the practice. Your insistence that there is no debate on the topic is looking more and more like deliberate deception.

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Correct. PAS had to be gagged by their coalition leader on the issue during the last election since it was seen as political suicide

That does not mean there is no serious debate. You seem to be shifting the goal posts here Gandalf. Pretty soon you will be telling us that we can only talk about it after they start executing apostates, and even then we have to excuse them because they don't really mean it.

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No, thats not what I'm talking about at all. "putting a stone in their hand" is just a figure of speech. Its about telling people that, with their support, this *CAN* actually happen - that there are x number of people - real people - awaiting sentencing for adultery - should they be stoned to death?

Justice is not a publicity contest. Once it becomes law, it happens. You don't see Americans going to the polls every time they put someone on death row. If someone supports the death penalty, they are not going to suddenly change their mind when they notice the death part of it.

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The "no" campaign then plasters pictures of their faces in all the major papers and asks the public if they would vote "yes" and condemn them to a most torturous death. They call in experts to describe in grizzly detail what they will go through as rocks crush their bones and the length of time it will take for them to die. You can't tell me that after this sort of debate people will respond the same as when someone abstractly and impersonally asks them simply "should adulterers be stoned".

Yes I can, because the debate is already happening, right at the top of Malaysian politics. And besides, only adulterers get stoned to death. Apostates presumably get a more humane ending. Like when you give a puppy to the pound.

Furthermore, Malaysia does not exactly permit free and open political debate.

Stratos:

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Oh come on, modern Christianity has a bunch of pagan objects involved. Extremely weak argument for a Christian to use. Also pagan=bad? since when and why, or is it just your opinion?

Paganism is bad according to Islam. That's why Muhammed insisted on wiping it out, by any means necessary.

Quote:

I'm not sure of the context, but seeing as it comes directly after a passage about staying making sure to do what you say you will do, to be more about standing as one in faith than an actual physical fight

Of course. Roll Eyes

Muhammed wasn't into the whole warmongering thing was he?

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ian

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #622 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:59pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

Do you believe that Shariah law must involve the death penalty for apostasy? Do I really need to explain to you (of all people) how idiotic Ian's argument is?

Yes, you need to explain. seeing as the survey of Malaysian Muslim opinions you quoted and seem so firmly to believe in apparently shows that the majority of Malaysian Muslims believe in stoning and head chopping if Sharia law was to be in place. This is your assertion, is it not? so now tell us in these places where sharia law is in place why there are zero cases of stoning and head chopping. Simple enough, stop evading and answer the relevant question.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #623 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:17pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Didn't you just claim that you follow Malaysian politics and that you know there is no serious debate on the issue? And yet here you are presenting evidence that before the last election, Anwar Ibrahim himself had to issue a statement about it because member parties of his own coalition openly support the practice. Your insistence that there is no debate on the topic is looking more and more like deliberate deception.

Again, key word serious debate. What we are talking about is a policy of a party that received 14% of the vote at the last election. They are a fringe party promoting a fringe issue. Malays themselves are not supporting them or their policies in droves - thats the point here. Now a majority of Malays supposedly support stoning - well they know which party to vote for to get it, but they don't.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Quote:
Correct. PAS had to be gagged by their coalition leader on the issue during the last election since it was seen as political suicide

That does not mean there is no serious debate.

Of course it does. The only "debate" going on was about how much of an embarrassment the issue was for the opposition, and how they should deal with it. Similar to the "debate" that arose when Cory Bernadi' made his statements about gay marriage = bestiality - not a serious debate about the merits of the statement - but rather about how Tony Abbott should deal with such an idiotic statement and person.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

If someone supports the death penalty, they are not going to suddenly change their mind when they notice the death part of it.

I disagree.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Stratos

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #624 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:19pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Paganism is bad according to Islam. That's why Muhammed insisted on wiping it out, by any means necessary.

Pretty much every religion has roots in paganism. Paradoxically almost all of them also condemn it. I don't see why this makes Islam any different to any other major religion by appropriating a previous tradition as their own. Also that was in response to PW relating paganism to Satanic practice, not as a response to Islamic beliefs about paganism.

freediver wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Of course. Muhammed wasn't into the whole warmongering thing was he?

Another topic for another thread (actually there is one somewhere I think). The quote was still out of context, and blatantly used the most beneficial translation to make the point he was going for, which was that Muslims are supposed to consider war a good thing.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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brumbie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 994 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #625 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:21pm Ian so far listening to you..you haven't got an opinion but you've always got an argument...would I be correct or do you have a stance on anything?..if at all? I'll give you an example: What do you think of the situation in Nigeria?
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brumbie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 994 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #626 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:27pm Apart from the weather that is...
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #627 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:38pm please stay on topic brumbie - if you want to talk about Ian's views on Nigeria, feel free to start a new thread. Unless of course it relates somehow to "spineless apologetics".
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ian

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #628 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:40pm

brumbie wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:21pm:

Ian so far listening to you..you haven't got an opinion but you've always got an argument...would I be correct or do you have a stance on anything?..if at all?
I'll give you an example:

What do you think of the situation in Nigeria?

of course, Ive made my political views clear any number of times on this forum. I have only stepped into this thread because of the disinformation being posted. I have happened to spend a considerable amount of time in both Indonesia and Malaysia and know these countries quite well.

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brumbie

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #629 - Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:46pm

ian wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:40pm:

brumbie wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 11:21pm:

Ian so far listening to you..you haven't got an opinion but you've always got an argument...would I be correct or do you have a stance on anything?..if at all?
I'll give you an example:

What do you think of the situation in Nigeria?

of course, Ive made my political views clear any number of times on this forum. I have only stepped into this thread because of the disinformation being posted. I have happened to spend a considerable amount of time in both Indonesia and Malaysia and know these countries quite well.

Thank you for your confirmation of your opinion on Nigeria

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