Australian Politics Forum - spineless apologetics

freediver

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Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #660 - Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 11:35am:

freediver wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 8:14am:

Quote:
there is a pro-hudud party, everyone knows who they are - and their leader(s) DO stand up and give Malays the hudud option

Of course they do this without any "serious" debate ever happening, hey Gandalf?

Correct. All major parties had a no-hudud policy, and whenever the one fringe islamist party tried to bring it up, they were howled down by everyone. Thats what you call "without a serious debate ever happening", and the Malay voters seemed a-ok with that, as they overwhelmingly voted for anti-hudud parties.

freediver wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 8:14am:

Quote:
Even when Anwar tried to distance himself from it, why didn't the pro-hudud majority Malays flock to PAS in droves, instead of giving them a pathetic 14% of the vote?

Because they are lunatics?

lol aren't Malays supposedly lunatics for wanting stoning and death for apostasy? But as always you miss the point. If there was political mileage to be gained from promoting hudud, the major parties would be capitalising on it - or at the very least wouldn't be stating so openly that they are opposed to it.

freediver wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 8:14am:

Quote:
Seems the political capital in Malaysia lies in being anti-hudud - or at the very least, it doesn't harm your political fortunes. What does that say?

The same thing I have been saying all along. Luckily they have democracy.

Nonsense. Hudud in Malaysia has only ever been proposed for Malays only. Indeed, other surveys have shown that Chinese and Indian Malaysians are not opposed to hudud because they believe that it won't affect them. So it really is a Malay-only issue, and which the success or otherwise of its implementation lies solely in the hands of the Malay public. And the fact is the Malays, who have significant political representation, have not in any way exercised the democratic levers at their disposal (protests, media etc, and especially not voting) to implement what they are supposed to want so passionately.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #661 - Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:47pm

freediver wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:17pm:

When Gandalf and Ian demanded I explain why these laws have not come to pass in Malaysia, I suggested democracy might have something to do with it, as roughly two thirds of the population oppose these laws. It would be reasonable to presume they oppose them strongly enough to vote against any party that supports them. Apparently this explanation is not good enough.

You really should comprehend what I actually say. The issue for me has always been why the issue doesn't even seem to register on the Malay voters radar. As I have pointed out repeatedly, there are no mass movements by Malays to introduce stoning, and when elections come around, the vast majority of Malays (yes thats Malaysian muslims, not Malaysians) - always vote for the anti-hudud parties.

What is this debate about? You have probably forgotton already , but for you this is all about painting Malays as inherently extremist and intolerant - "little Hitlers" who seem to be worth rating a mention alongside WWII imperialist Japanese - though you don't seem to know why... Freudian slip perhaps Tongue

... In any case, thats your agenda, this survey is only worth mentioning to push your "gah! muslim evil" barrow. Of course to you, any attempts to explain the clear mismatch between Malays stated beliefs and their demonstrated democratic behaviour is just "spineless apologetics" to you, but thats insane. To me its far more spineless to simply jump on the islamophobe bandwagon at every opportunity; expressly seeking animosity rather than understanding.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #662 - Jan 1^st, 2014 at 9:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:47pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:17pm:

When Gandalf and Ian demanded I explain why these laws have not come to pass in Malaysia, I suggested democracy might have something to do with it, as roughly two thirds of the population oppose these laws. It would be reasonable to presume they oppose them strongly enough to vote against any party that supports them. Apparently this explanation is not good enough.

You really should comprehend what I actually say. The issue for me has always been why the issue doesn't even seem to register on the Malay voters radar. As I have pointed out repeatedly, there are no mass movements by Malays to introduce stoning, and when elections come around, the vast majority of Malays (yes thats Malaysian muslims, not Malaysians) - always vote for the anti-hudud parties.

What is this debate about? You have probably forgotton already , but for you this is all about painting Malays as inherently extremist and intolerant - "little Hitlers" who seem to be worth rating a mention alongside WWII imperialist Japanese - though you don't seem to know why... Freudian slip perhaps Tongue

... In any case, thats your agenda, this survey is only worth mentioning to push your "gah! muslim evil" barrow. Of course to you, any attempts to explain the clear mismatch between Malays stated beliefs and their demonstrated democratic behaviour is just "spineless apologetics" to you, but thats insane.

To me its far more spineless to simply jump on the islamophobe bandwagon at every opportunity; expressly seeking animosity rather than understanding.

gandalf,

Your moslem 'logic' is unreasonable, imo.

e.g.
I can't reconcile the information [about ISLAM and the behaviour of moslems], that is found here;

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

...with a logic that can dismiss or 'demonise', 'ISLAMOPHOBIA'.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #663 - Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 9:34am Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #664 - Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 3:51pm

freediver wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:17pm:

When Gandalf and Ian demanded I explain why these laws have not come to pass in Malaysia, I suggested democracy might have something to do with it, as roughly two thirds of the population oppose these laws.

I'm afraid you are wrong. Didn't actually occur to you to consider what the non-muslim population think about the issue did it?

http://en.harakahdaily.net/index.php/berita-utama/5845-survey-confirms-failure-o...

survey:

Quote:

Asked whether they thought hudud was fair to all, 42 per cent of Chinese respondents answered in the affirmative. Only 14 per cent of the Chinese disagreed while about one-fourth of them said they were not sure.

Quote:

The respondents were further asked whether the implementation of hudud could be a solution to widespread crime, to which 41 per cent of Chinese respondents agreed while some 32% were not sure. Among the Indians, while half of them were not sure with the notion, only 23% disagreed.

1. 86% of Chinese either believe that hudud is fair for all (42%) or are not sure. Only 14% believe it is unfair

2. 73% of Chinese either believe that hudud could be a solution to crime (41%) or were not sure. Only 27% disagreed.

Chinese Malaysians make up about 26% of the population. Similar ratios were found with the Indian population - which make up about 7% of the population. I'll let you do the maths, but it certainly blows your assumption that 2/3rds of the entire Malaysian population "oppose" hudud laws.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Grendel

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #665 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:30am

http://www.news.com.au/national/aussie-beauty-killed-in-syrian-hellhole-had-a-se...

Quote:

Aussie beauty killed in Syrian hellhole had a secret jihad life
* by: Clementine Cuneo
* From: The Daily Telegraph
* 10 hours ago January 14, 2014 12:00AM

* 22-year-old told parents she was going to Denmark
* Mother informed she had died alongside husband
* Had Anglican education at all girls school
* Father runs kebab shop on Gold Coast

CLAD in a black burqa, Sydney woman Amira Karroum bore no resemblance to the fresh-faced student from one of the country's most prestigious Anglican schools when she died in a bullet-ridden house in Syria last week.

Quote:

When she finished school five years ago, before moving to Granville in Sydney's western suburbs, Karroum showed no hint of being the radical Muslim she would become.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #666 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:40am Quote: When she finished school five years ago, before moving to Granville in Sydney's western suburbs, Karroum showed no hint of being the radical Muslim she would become. Why exactly is she 'radical"?
Back to top	« Last Edit: Jan 14^th, 2014 at 12:59pm by Stratos » Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm: Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act IP Logged

Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #667 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:25am Please don't attribute quotes to me when they are not mine.
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Stratos

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #668 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:36am

Grendel wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:25am:

Please don't attribute quotes to me when they are not mine. Roll Eyes

Going by that did you expect anyone to respond to anything? Your entire post was quotes!

It was from the article though. Still wondering why it is saying she is radical however, as nothing really indicates it it seems to me

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #669 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 12:43pm That's right it was all quotes... I'd expect people not to attribute things to me that I didn't write. Pretty simple really. Don't lie about me or what I say. Address what is actually there. You know you're on my ignore list... You keep showing why.
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Grendel

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #670 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 12:52pm

Quote:

Afghanistan bomb plot girl tells her story

THE NINE-YEAR-OLD girl who was detained in Afghanistan wearing a suicide vest has told her story in her own words.

Spozhmai, who is currently in the protective custody of the government, told her story to the BBC World Service .

One evening her brother took her outside and told her to put on a vest.

"He showed me how to operate it, and I said: 'I can't - what if it doesn't work?' And he said: 'It will, don't worry.'

"I was scared and he took the vest back from me and he hit me hard, and I felt scared. Then [he gave me back the vest and] left me near the checkpoint where he said I had to operate it.

"I realised it was a suicide vest because it was heavier than a normal one."

Spozhmai said her brother told her she would not die if she operated the vest, but she knew this was not true.

She was left to sleep in the desert near the checkpoint. In the morning a man from the checkpoint found her and told her she needed to talk to his commander.

http://www.news.com.au/world/afghanistan-bomb-plot-girl-tells-her-story/story-fn...

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Stratos

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #671 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 12:59pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

That's right it was all quotes... I'd expect people not to attribute things to me that I didn't write. Pretty simple really. Don't lie about me or what I say.

Sorry, automatically happened when I clicked mark and quote from your post.

Read the article again though, and still don't understand why it labelled her as an extremist. She moved to be with her husband and her family were unaware of her movements. A bit odd maybe, but not extreme as far as I can tell from the report.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Pete Waldo

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #672 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:47pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:17pm:

When Gandalf and Ian demanded I explain why these laws have not come to pass in Malaysia, I suggested democracy might have something to do with it, as roughly two thirds of the population oppose these laws. It would be reasonable to presume they oppose them strongly enough to vote against any party that supports them. Apparently this explanation is not good enough.

You really should comprehend what I actually say. The issue for me has always been why the issue doesn't even seem to register on the Malay voters radar. As I have pointed out repeatedly, there are no mass movements by Malays to introduce stoning, and when elections come around, the vast majority of Malays (yes thats Malaysian muslims, not Malaysians) - always vote for the anti-hudud parties.

What is this debate about? You have probably forgotton already , but for you this is all about painting Malays as inherently extremist and intolerant
- "little Hitlers" who seem to be worth rating a mention alongside WWII imperialist Japanese - though you don't seem to know why......

Why don't you start with citizens being subject to 3 years in prison, for speaking honestly and openly about Muhammad for example, even as he is revealed through Islam's own books? Were he and his boys prisoner rapists or not?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388161887/9#9

Casts a bit of a pall over open conversation, don't you think? Oh wait, I guess you wouldn't think so, since it is the lies that you have been taught that are being protected from being exposed to the truth. Indeed it is Islam itself that is "spineless", because it has never been able to stand in the light of the truth, and thus requires blasphemy and apostasy laws to enslave the false prophet Muhammad's followers to his anti-religion.

Then we can move on to MEN in Malaysia divorcing their wives by text message:
https://www.google.com/#q=malaysia+divorce+text+message

But when women wish to divorce their husbands? I'll bet women in Malaysia suspect it could go pretty much the way it did for ole' Mo Hassan's wife here in the U.S.:
https://www.google.com/#q=mo+hassan+beheads+wife

Of course an "honor" killing like that in the Middle East cradle of Muhammadanism, would barely be punished, if at all. In Iraq it only costs $100 to have a Muslim "honor" kill one's wife or child.

Then maybe we can move on to "adultery" in the Islamic world. That is adultery of WOMEN.

Of course all MEN have to do is enter into a temporary marriage contract, to have Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" smile down on their fornication, in an adulterous affair.
https://www.google.com/#q=mutah+misyar

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:47pm:

....... Freudian slip perhaps Tongue

... In any case, thats your agenda, this survey is only worth mentioning to push your "gah! muslim evil" barrow. Of course to you, any attempts to explain the clear mismatch between Malays stated beliefs and their demonstrated democratic behaviour is just "spineless apologetics" to you, but thats insane. To me its far more spineless to simply jump on the islamophobe bandwagon at every opportunity; expressly seeking animosity rather than understanding.

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« Last Edit: Jan 15^th, 2014 at 3:52am by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Grendel

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #673 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 9:18am

From a so called "moderate" who embraced the western lifestyle to...

Grendel wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:30am:

http://www.news.com.au/national/aussie-beauty-killed-in-syrian-hellhole-had-a-se...

Quote:

Aussie beauty killed in Syrian hellhole had a secret jihad life
* by: Clementine Cuneo
* From: The Daily Telegraph
* 10 hours ago January 14, 2014 12:00AM

* 22-year-old told parents she was going to Denmark
* Mother informed she had died alongside husband
* Had Anglican education at all girls school
* Father runs kebab shop on Gold Coast

CLAD in a black burqa, Sydney woman Amira Karroum bore no resemblance to the fresh-faced student from one of the country's most prestigious Anglican schools when she died in a bullet-ridden house in Syria last week.

Quote:

When she finished school five years ago, before moving to Granville in Sydney's western suburbs, Karroum showed no hint of being the radical Muslim she would become.

Quote:

Rose Karroum writes Facebook tribute to sister Amira, killed in Syria alongside husband Yusaf Ali
* by: Greg Stolz
* From: The Courier-Mail
* 14 Jan 2014

AMIRA Karroum was a "soldier" who died with the man who "made her heart flutter", her sister says.

In a heartfelt tribute, Rose Karroum told their mother she had raised "a beautiful daughter" and should be proud.

Rose, also a devout Muslim who calls herself "Mujahidah Lioness" on Facebook, took to the social networking site yesterday to try to console her distraught mum Honor Deane.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #674 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 9:28am A beat up. Nothing yet reported has indicated she has been involved in any kind of this extremism
Back to top	Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm: Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act IP Logged