FD you do seem to have an unnatural obsession with Brian's posts.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2014 at 6:39pm:


- a lot.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2014 at 6:39pm:


I admit they do - after you are done mutilating them and constructing all sorts of strawmen about them.

From the other thread. Gandalf I am pretty sure you have agreed with me previously about what Brian posted. Why are you now trying to defend it?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2014 at 12:24am:


Are you apologising for Brian's spineless apologetics? Does it make a difference to how you feel about what Brian posted? And you are wrong. It was not limited to other countries. He included other religions in the reasons why he has no right to criticise certain people.

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Islam is a political and a religious ideology.

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I don't. At least, not directly.

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I did not accuse him of hypocrisy because of the different level of his concern, but because he employed the exact opposite argument - in one case stating the imperative of speaking out when you see injustice, in the other case arguing he has no right or ability to speak out. Please quit pretending you cannot understand this.

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Crap. You are starting to get a persecution complex Gandalf. I concede that probably more than half are in general critics of Islam, but I hardly think that is unfair. You yourself profess to be a critic, though I am yet to see it in action.

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Now you are sounding jealous. I devote far more of my time to you than to Brian, I promise. But there is just something about Brian's hypocrisy that makes my skin crawl.

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I challenge you to find a single other statement anywhere on this forum that is more worthy of the label "spineless apologetics". Just think of Brian as another unfairly treated poster child for you to rescue from their own incompetence. Perhaps you can reveal an anecdote about Brian being too afraid to speak out in the past to make us more sympathetic to Brian's crap about not having a right to criticise Muslims.

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I do, on occasion. That is part of the reason why I put together the wiki - so that we could focus on the genuinely barbaric aspects of Islam rather than the strawmen.

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Can you demonstrate any actual hypocrisy on my part? Or has hypocrisy now become not paying enough attention to you?

freediver wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2014 at 9:10pm:


Why do you insist on planting beliefs in people's minds? For me, islam is not a political ideology, it is a very personal thing only, and I have no desire to make it political. I'm sure thats the attitude of a great many muslims in Australia - who like me, strongly advocate peace and secular values. Thats the thing about religion - you don't get to dictate what other people believe, its entirely up to the individual to decide what they mean by "I'm muslim".

Yet here we have open calls for all muslims to be indiscriminately persecuted and expelled from the country (where to is anyone's guess). Gross violations of people's human rights based on nothing else but their personal beliefs. Thats fascism pure and simple - and it directly affects all of us as Australians. And you are spinelessly apologising for it. Sorry if I find this more outrageous than Brian refusing to condemn the actions of people on the other side of the world.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 11:18am:


Thats because I didn't. But at least you've gone from "statement of gay pride" to merely "statement of tolerance" - thats something I guess. Maybe in another few months you'll quote what I actually said.

Islam is a personal and non-political ideology for the vast majority of muslims living in western countries. You can check this from the surveys of the same researchers you love to quote about Malaysians.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 11:18am:


Exactly. I think we worked out about half Malaysian muslims advocate secular values like freedom of religion and not applying hudud laws. That would just reinforce the view that "a great many" muslims in a western country like Australia have similar, and even more secular views. So please pull out the evil views of approximately half of all Malaysian muslims - it just reinforces my claim.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 11:18am:


Ah yes, misquoting again. Never mind, give it another few months and you might start inching towards what I actually wrote.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 11:18am:


Not really. You don't agree with me that its a serious threat to our society, and you can't bring yourself to condemn it for what it is - fascism (even though you are claiming you agree that it is) - merely employing the limp wristed phrase "it goes to far". But its good if you do oppose the sentiment, but I still maintain that there is hypocrisy on your part - in the sense that anything that you perceive as even remotely fascistic by muslims or muslim apologists and we get 15 threads about it and a month long campaign about it - including wiki articles. But anything that is of the same "anti-FD-values" nature against muslims, then FD is silent unless prodded. That is, the post 2007 FD - 2007 FD was full of energy when it came to any type of fascism.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 12:13pm:


You see? That's what we all love about Islam.

It preaches hope.

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Do you have any evidence for this?

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Crap. More than half of them support the most brutal aspects of hudud laws, and even more support the milder aspects.

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I don't recall using that phrase. I wouldn't want to sound like Brian, or you. I do not see it as a credible threat that our society would 'deport' citizens. I do see a credible possibility of deporting non-citizens, and I would support that, if done for the right reasons. This is consistent with everything I have said on the matter.

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I have voiced my criticism plenty of times, without prodding.

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Great many can mean whatever you want it to.

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This is what I was responding to:

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