Australian Politics Forum - spineless apologetics

Karnal

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #795 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 2:40pm:

uote:
and force change upon us?

Like when the Europeans interfered in the middle east to end slavery?

Expertly evaded FD.

Or when the Europeans interfered in the Middle East to create a global hub for slavery?

Questions, questions.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #796 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:52pm Or when the Europeans intervened to empower the wahabists in Arabia? Or when the British and the US intervened to overthrow a secular democracy in Iran Or when the British and French intervened to stop the Egyptian's nationalising their Suez canal Or when...
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #797 - Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:19pm I told you he was Abu, FD. He’s just given it away. Who else would criticize us?
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|dev|null

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #798 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 11:19am

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 2:40pm:

Quote:

Tell me, FD do you think the citizens of other nations have the right to criticise Australia

This may come as a surprise to a fan of Brian, but yes.

Quote:

and force change upon us?

Like when the Europeans interfered in the middle east to end slavery?

Neat attempt at a sidestep FD. Very commendable.

So, when our treatment of Muslims comes to the point where you're happy you'll have no probs with other nations criticising us or even intervening to force us to recognise our international human rights obligations towards them? Grin

Quote:

I know Brian was talking about and it doesn't mean what you keep claiming it means.

I am not claiming anything. I am quoting him directly. I realise how misleading this can be. It takes a lot of explanation to reveal Brian's true meaning, doesn't it?

Only if you weren't following the debate.

Quote:

By the way, this is your chance to explain it all away on Brian's behalf. Brian has had a bit of trouble doing so, seeing as he insists on standing by what he actually said. Just as it requires Brian to completely ignore Muslims in order to defend them, you must completely ignore what Brian says in order to defend what he says.

He can defend himself. He however, appears to have chosen to take the Wellesyian attitude, knowing that what ever he says you'll still claim the reverse FD. I've noticed that a lot from you when you debate. Makes me wonder if its not a deliberate tactic but rather a learning problem for you. You don't read articles, you claim your opponents say the reverse of what they said, etc., etc. Grin

Quote:

He might also be saying some one is personally engaged in a crusade, FD. Ever consider that?

I was there at the time. I don't need to imagine what Brian carries on with. I quoted one example for you, and gave a reference to 600 more google results. I was only joking when I suggested you might try to excuse them all. But go ahead, be my guest.

So, post you search string then. Lets see what the context of all those 600 results were, rather than merely expecting us to believe what you claim they mean what you claim they mean. From past experience we've see your comprehension skills are a bit lacking! Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #799 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 12:25pm

What misleading claims have I made about Brian's comments in the opening post?

I have already given the google search terms I used, and quoted one of the results. The only reason I pointed out that google returned 600 is because you attempted to make something of the fact that I only presented one example of Brian doing what he does. I really was joking when I suggested you go through all 600, but be my guest, if you think it is so important that we get an accurate measure of one of Brian's favourite pieces of spineless apologetics.

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|dev|null

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #800 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 1:18pm

OK, having looked at the Google search that FD used:

Quote:

Brian Ross Crusades site:ozpolitic.com

It produced 600 hits.

I then examine each of them and found that if I removed the "spineless" thread from contention by modifying the search string thusly

Quote:

Brian Ross Crusades -spineless site:ozpolitic.com

There were now 378 hits. That is a significant reduction. I then started sampling those 378. I found numerous hits which merely contained either the name "Brian Ross" on the same page, such as this one: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1403755649/74 and this http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1403755649/49 . In fact it was other posters who had mentioned the word, not Brian and it gained a hit because both words "Crusades" and "Brian Ross" (as in "« Last Edit: 06/29/14 at 21:37:10 by Brian Ross »") appeared on the same page but not in the same post!

Then there were pages where Brian merely mentioned the word "Crusades", such as this one, not using it as an "excuse" as claimed by DL and you, FD (it puts your quote into a broader context as well, showing your lie):

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 8:40pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 5:34pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2014 at 2:38pm:

Israel helped create Hamas to split the PLO which was united against it. If you want to blame anybody for what is going on, look to the Israeli Government which has been trying to prevent a rapprochement between the P.A. and Hamas ever since they helped create Hamas.

Zif the Muslim Arabs needed ANY outside 'help' to be divided and at each other's throat for the slightest little reason. They have been murdering each other since the day Mohammed died - they still live under the storm cloud of the 7th century and their utter inability to live with each other in peace.

Except of course, the Hamas - Fatah split was all about politics and dealing with the "Zionist entity" rather than schismatic religious beliefs. Most Palestinians are primarily Sunni, so it's likely most Hamas and most Fatah supporters share the same doctrinal beliefs.

Your comment, if you merely changed a few words could just as equally describe Christians, Soren. They've been at each other's throats since it came to predominate in Europe. Forgotten the various religious wars and "crusades" conducted there over the last millennia? Roll Eyes

Another example where someone else mentioned "Crusades" and "Brian Ross" yet Brian did not use the word:
Grendel wrote on Nov 15^th, 2013 at 9:20am:

Bwian put both feet in his lying gob yet again...

Quote:

Quote:

All those people were Christians were they? Having another religious Crusade were they? Killing American Indians in the name of their God were they? Grin

you are nuts.

Actually they were. In particular the Spanish did during the Conquista.

But of course bwian we were talking about the North American Indians weren't we and not the Spanish.

And another:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 8:39pm:

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 8:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 7:14pm:

So, in what way is this many representative of the majority of Australian Muslims any more than this man is of Australian Christians? ...

Got any pictures of your exemplar holding up severed heads and offering human organs for sale? Anything even remotely similar? Posted pictures on social media encouraging Christians to their version of Jihad (Crusade?)?

So, you're saying that the majority of Australian Muslims approve of such antics, Lionel? You have some evidence to support such a viewpoint?

I thought not... Roll Eyes

The point is neither man is representative of the majority viewpoint of their claimed religion, Lionel. So, instead of trying to suggest such behaviour is typical of Muslims, I would look to Christianity's own extremists and consider whether you treat them in the say way you treat Islam's.

Of course, seeking consistency in one's attitudes is not something some people seem to manage too well... Roll Eyes

Then we have posts like this one:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 10:04pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 10:01pm:

You know you don't have to ask me S, Yadda has all the right quotes all ready to post.

...again and again... Roll Eyes

What? No mention of the word "Crusades" at all? How did that come up? Guess what the thread was called? [url=http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1380006386/42"Re: Crusade Means Death, Slaughter, Misery"[/url]!

Now, this is just a small sample of the 378 hits and they all came basically from the first page of the Google search but it looks increasingly like this is a witch hunt.

So, you were there, were you FD? You witnessed Brian using the Crusades to apologise for the excesses of Muslim extremists? OK, lets see an example. An actual, bone fide example where Brian makes the excuse that the Crusades excuse Islamic Terrorism or an apology might be in order. I don't expect to see one from DL, he's too mean spirited to every admit he's wrong on anything but what about you, esteemed moderator? You man enough to admit you're wrong? Grin

Or is Brian correct about you?

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« Last Edit: Aug 14^th, 2014 at 1:40pm by |dev|null »

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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Karnal

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #801 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 1:35pm

Now now, fair’s fair. FD never said he had to be accurate. FD believes in Freeedom - the non-tinted version of Taqiyya.

FD is free to say what he likes. If you quibble or nit-pick, you’re a spineless apologist.

If you disagree, you’re a Muslim.

And if you dare to speak out against FD’s superior moral code, you’re Abu.

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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #802 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:01pm

Quote:

So, you were there, were you FD? You witnessed Brian using the Crusades to apologise for the excesses of Muslim extremists?

One more time for HB:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:55am:

Please excuse the oversight. Datalife, it was wrong of you to accuse Brian of making excuses. That would be an attempt at rationality. Brian merely draws parallels. There is no need to excuse these atrocities because Muslims have every right to commit them, according to Brian.

Can I take it you have whittled 600 google results down to about 370 examples now? Keep going, you have important work to do.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: spineless apologetics Reply #803 - Aug 14^th, 2014 at 8:47pm We’re all under the pump, FD. You’ve got that report on mutilating bodies to get cracking on. No rest for the wicked, eh?
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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #804 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:24am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 10:14pm:

Quote:

You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.

You really should take a look at that Pew survey.

Which one? I know of several. They provide interesting snapshots of Muslim opinion, FD. That opinion, like all communities' opinion changes according to events.

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|dev|null

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #805 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 10:53am

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:24am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 10:14pm:

Quote:

You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.

You really should take a look at that Pew survey.

Which one? I know of several. They provide interesting snapshots of Muslim opinion, FD. That opinion, like all communities' opinion changes according to events.

And exactly is your problem with that statement, FD?

Appears quite factual to me. Public Opinion surveys are snapshots of opinion at the time they are taken. They don't tell you what the opinion might be 5 seconds after the questions are asked! Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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|dev|null

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #806 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 10:55am

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

Quote:

So, you were there, were you FD? You witnessed Brian using the Crusades to apologise for the excesses of Muslim extremists?

One more time for HB:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:55am:

Please excuse the oversight. Datalife, it was wrong of you to accuse Brian of making excuses. That would be an attempt at rationality. Brian merely draws parallels. There is no need to excuse these atrocities because Muslims have every right to commit them, according to Brian.

Can I take it you have whittled 600 google results down to about 370 examples now? Keep going, you have important work to do.

I have done enough to show that DL and your claim about what Brian said about "Crusades" as an "excuse for" Islamic Terrorism are incorrect, FD. I see no effort to apologise. Brian is right about you. Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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|dev|null

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #807 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 10:56am

Karnal wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

Now now, fair’s fair. FD never said he had to be accurate. FD believes in Freeedom - the non-tinted version of Taqiyya.

FD is free to say what he likes. If you quibble or nit-pick, you’re a spineless apologist.

If you disagree, you’re a Muslim.

And if you dare to speak out against FD’s superior moral code, you’re Abu.

This explains so much about FD, just so much.

Out of a matter of interest, what is your analysis of DL? Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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Datalife

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #808 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 3:54pm

|dev|null wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 10:55am:

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

Quote:

So, you were there, were you FD? You witnessed Brian using the Crusades to apologise for the excesses of Muslim extremists?

One more time for HB:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:55am:

Please excuse the oversight. Datalife, it was wrong of you to accuse Brian of making excuses. That would be an attempt at rationality. Brian merely draws parallels. There is no need to excuse these atrocities because Muslims have every right to commit them, according to Brian.

Can I take it you have whittled 600 google results down to about 370 examples now? Keep going, you have important work to do.

I have done enough to show that DL and your claim about what Brian said about "Crusades" as an "excuse for" Islamic Terrorism are incorrect, FD. I see no effort to apologise. Brian is right about you. Grin

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Brian Ross wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 8:00pm:

I must wonder though, how the efvents of 100 years ago has much bearing on how Muslims today act, now, as members of Australian society. None of the Australian Muslim population were alive 100 years ago and most of their ancestor were resident in other countries at the time.

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freediver

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Re: spineless apologetics
Reply #809 - Aug 15^th, 2014 at 6:07pm

Quote:

Public Opinion surveys are snapshots of opinion at the time they are taken. They don't tell you what the opinion might be 5 seconds after the questions are asked!

So it is pointless asking Muslims what they think? Or we should ignore what they say in favour of what we hope they think, on the grounds that Muslims change their mind every 5 seconds? This sounds to me like a slightly stupider version of one of Gandalf's excuses - that the Pew survey tricked them into giving the answers the Pew society wanted.

Quote:

I have done enough to show that DL and your claim about what Brian said about "Crusades" as an "excuse for" Islamic Terrorism are incorrect, FD.

What did I claim?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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