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NBN progress? (Read 126310 times)
longweekend58
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #150 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:14pm
 
St George of the Garden wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:04pm:
Actually the rollout was ramping up, despite obstacles put in its path by LNP state and local govts. NBN Co should have been much more aggressive in its rollout, turning to running the NBN between power poles whenever Telstra attempted to slow the rollout down for its own interests.

For me the LNP sabotage makes the LNP the Party of Treason.

Someone is whinging mining is hollowing out manufacturing. The NBN would have rectified that in many ways—optimising the potential of 3D printing, boosting education, health etc.


utter wank...  but I will give you the 3D printing argument is a new one.  Stupid of course, but a new one,
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #151 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:17pm
 
Coalition's slower NBN will 'make less money'

November 28, 2013 - 1:14PM
Jonathan Swan
...
Slower speeds are expected to hit revenue for the government's NBN. Photo: Peter Braig

The Abbott government expects to make less money from the NBN because of slower speeds available under the Coalition's copper-based network, a Senate committee has heard.

Facing aggressive questioning from former communications minister Stephen Conroy, government officials admitted that the company building the NBN would have to lower its revenue forecasts, partly because of the cheaper, but inferior, technology preferred by the Coalition.

...
Former communications minister Stephen Conroy. Photo: Louise Kennerley

There are at least three reasons why the NBN Co expects to make less money from customers on the Coalition's network – which is expected to be about $17 billion cheaper to build than the previous Labor government's NBN.
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First, businesses and families will not be able to buy the highest speed plans offered under Labor's NBN, which involved running fibre cabling to 93 per cent of homes around Australia.

The Coalition's alternative NBN, which piggybacks on copper telephone wires for about 70 per cent of households, could not offer “packages” of 250, 500 or 1000 megabits per second, government officials said on Thursday.

Second, it is likely Australians will download and upload less data across the Coalition's slower NBN, which would lower revenue forecasts.

And third, while Labor's NBN was essentially a government-owned monopoly, the Coalition's network will face infrastructure competition from telecoms companies offering other technologies such as HFC (hybrid fibre-coaxial).

Senator Conroy, now the shadow defence minister, was revelling in his new opposition role. He aggressively questioned the government officials whom he oversaw for three years as communications minister.

“Be careful,” was a warning that frequently prefaced Senator Conroy's questions, which were informed by his deep knowledge of the inner workings of the Communications Department.

“All three of you must know the answer to this question … you can't not know this information,” Senator Conroy told the three department secretaries about a question he asked on the products and speeds available under the new NBN.

“Could [the NBN Co] offer a product that it's not possible to deliver in fibre to the node?” Senator Conroy wondered at another point in Thursday's hearings. “Could they offer a product that it's actually not technically feasible to offer?”

Senator Conroy pulled up a PowerPoint presentation to give the department officials a quick lesson on how much data Australians had been using over the past few years.

At another moment in the hearings held at Parliament House, Canberra, Senator Conroy mouthed “don't” to one of the department secretaries, who appeared to be dodging a question about the technical limits of copper wiring.
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #152 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:35pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:14pm:
...  but I will give you the 3D printing argument is a new one.  Stupid of course, but a new one,
Not really. It's just slightly less imaginative than the molecular nano-assembler in my previous answer on the topic.

# wrote on Aug 17th, 2013 at 9:23pm:
...
Unlike you, I don't pretend to know all.

Anyway, over dinner we've been having a little fun with your silly question.

Our first hypothetical builds on your Jetsons reference, I call it "When bmus:// replaces http://". "http://" refers to the protocol by which web pages are transmitted; "bmus://" is an initialism for "Beam me up, Scotty". OK, that's Star Trek, not The Jetsons, but close enough.

The Star Trek transporter supposedly converted matter into energy, beamed the energy to another location, then converted the energy back into matter. It's been calculated that doing so with something the size of a human being would take more energy than is thought to exist in the known universe, [or something] so it's a little impractical.

One proposed way around the difficulty is to transmit, not the energy of your matter, but information about that matter. To do that, you'd be blasted into a plasma, the quantum state of every subatomic particle recorded, the information transmitted and you reassembled from matter that's already at the receiving end, using that information.

So far, I'm told, we can blast you into plasma quite effectively. Optical fibre has the necessary capacity, though the NBN hardware at each end would need upgrading. Recording the quantum states and reassembly after transmission will be left as exercises for the class.  Wink

Of course, the amount of data involved (a human body is composed of quite a few atoms and each atom of many particles) is prodigious, so the bandwidth is substantial.

The second hypothetical involves the nano-assembler, on which the likes of Drexler have been working for decades. The idea is that objects be built up, atom by atom.

Goods could, for example, would be purchased online and delivered, not physically, but as instructions for the nano-assembler. Transmitting data for every atom in an object is bound to be bandwidth-intensive.

One interesting side-effect is that so-called "piracy" enters a whole new dimension (or three).

The third is not so hypothetical. It has been proposed that, where there's sufficient penetration of fibre to the premises, services that are currently broadcast be transferred to the network. That frees up valuable spectrum for other uses.

This only works where there's a free fibre connection to every premises. The Coalition's half-baked proposal simply won't cut it. Copper lacks the necessary bandwidth and demanding that people pay for connections to services that are currently broadcast free would be difficult to sell politically.

You asked me to anticipate an application for the residential market. I've given you three possibilities, two of which have serious proponents (much to my surprise). In reality, we're all in the position of that bloke who couldn't figure out what use a telephone might be. Our frame of reference is telegrams delivered by bicycle.

You still haven't clarified what you believe will halt the rise in demand for bandwidth. I presume that's because nothing will.

You're making the mistake of every know-it-all ignoramus.
# wrote on Nov 25th, 2013 at 12:50pm:
...
A while back, someone pointed out to me that the Overland Telegraph was completed in 1872. The telephone was patented in 1876. No doubt those responsible for the overland telegraph thought they knew what those wires would be used for. The telephone, which originally used telegraph wires, changed the game.

Something to ponder, for those who assume they know the uses of optical fibre.

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« Last Edit: Nov 29th, 2013 at 9:01am by # »  
 
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St George of the Garden
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #153 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:14pm:
St George of the Garden wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:04pm:
Actually the rollout was ramping up, despite obstacles put in its path by LNP state and local govts. NBN Co should have been much more aggressive in its rollout, turning to running the NBN between power poles whenever Telstra attempted to slow the rollout down for its own interests.

For me the LNP sabotage makes the LNP the Party of Treason.

Someone is whinging mining is hollowing out manufacturing. The NBN would have rectified that in many ways—optimising the potential of 3D printing, boosting education, health etc.


utter wank...  but I will give you the 3D printing argument is a new one.  Stupid of course, but a new one,


You obviously have no idea of the file sizes to do with 3D printing.
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #154 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm
 
St George of the Garden wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
...
You obviously have no idea of the file sizes to do with 3D printing.
This is longweekend58 we're talking about. You could have stopped after the fifth word.
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #155 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 9:07am
 
No matter what we need, it seems we'll get what Rupert and Gina approve.

Confidential briefing: NBN unlikely to meet Coalition's deadline

November 29, 2013 - 12:01AM
David Braue

...
Cheaper, faster NBN unlikely to meet 2016 deadline according to confidential briefing papers. Photo: Louie Douvis

Exclusive

The Coalition’s national broadband network model will prove inadequate for many businesses, is poorly planned and is unlikely to be completed on time, according to NBN Co’s internal analysis for the incoming Abbott government.

Obtained by Fairfax Media, the analysis casts doubts over the timing and cost-effectiveness of the government’s proposed fibre-to-the-node model, highlighting numerous legislative, construction and technical challenges likely to blow out the Coalition’s 2016 and 2019 delivery deadlines.

The draft document also slashes revenue projections important for the project’s commercial viability by up to 30 per cent by 2021.
...
Dr Ziggy Switkowski, executive chairman of NBN Co, during Budget Estimates at Parliament House. Photo: Alex Ellinghausen


Under the Coalition policy, fibre optic cables would be installed to nodes, or street cabinets. From there, existing copper wires would complete the connection to homes and businesses.
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Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull promised this would give households broadband that was “fast, affordable, sooner” than Labor’s fibre-to-the-home model.

On Friday, Mr Turnbull dismissed the document during an interview with Channel Nine.

"This document is a) out of date, b) it is defending a failed project. It has no credibility, absolutely none," he said.

"The truth is, that we will know what is actually going on the NBN very soon, because there is a big strategic review underway at the moment ...It's a very objective study."

The advice prepared as part of the material contained in the “blue book” – to brief the incoming government – suggests the Coalition’s model faces a plethora of technical and legislative obstacles and is unlikely to be completed by 2016.

Mr Turnbull had promised to deliver 25 megabits per second (Mbps) broadband services to all homes by then, and to upgrade 90 per cent of premises to 50Mbps by 2019.

“There are a number of conditions that will impact on NBN Co’s ability to undertake a volume [fibre-to-the-node] network rollout,” the report warns. “Given the complexity of these conditions, it is unlikely that NBN Co will meet the 2016 deadline to upgrade the fixed network to enable Australians to have minimum download speeds of 25Mbps.”

NBN Co’s technical advice says completion of the second stage of the rollout by 2019 ‘‘could be achievable’’ but could slide past 2019 if there was not significant progress on 12 issues soon.

The conditions include “significant” remediation of Telstra’s copper network, council planning and approval for the installation of what independent assessments suggest will be about 60,000 street cabinets, the need to recruit and retrain a large workforce on fibre-to-the-node technology, the introduction of complementary legislation and competition watchdog approval.

Most of these issues need to be resolved before large-scale rollout can begin, the document says.

The analysis also:
  • warns that some medium-sized businesses and all large enterprises would need to buy their own fibre internet connections as the cheaper NBN alternative would be unable to support many business-class features offered under Labor’s fibre-to-the-home model. Even small businesses with a “high design and or knowledge-worker component” would find the Coalition model only partly covered their needs.
  • criticises Mr Turnbull’s proposed two-stage rollout of 25Mbps and 50Mbps, noting that it would require trucks to visit each premises in the country twice. The report’s authors advise: “There is no need to delay a deployment ... NBN Co should deploy the best available technology in the [fibre-to-the-node] network from the start of the rollout.”
  • finds that broadband providers would not be able to offer as many high-end packages. “This may cause concerns in the community, especially for people wanting higher broadband speeds,’’ it says.

The revelations in the document came to light on Thursday as a Senate committee heard that officials expected the government to make less money from the NBN under the Coalition model because it would offer slower speeds and users were likely to download and upload less data than otherwise would be expected, and because it would face competition from companies offering other technologies.

Proposed by Labor before the 2010 election, the $37.4 billion NBN has come under fire from opponents for its expense and for missing rollout targets.

[continued ...]
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #156 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 9:08am
 
[... continued]

It is the subject of four reviews ordered by the Coalition, including a 60-day strategic review due next week. Mr Turnbull has said he wants those results before deciding how to proceed with the rollout of his $29.5 billion model.

Since the election, the new minister has sacked all but two members of the previous NBN Co board, and installed the former Telstra chief executive Ziggy Switkowski as executive chairman and three other telecommunications veterans as non-executive directors. Three former Telstra executives have joined the ranks of NBN Co.

NBN Co executives, including Mr Switkowski, have been ordered to appear before at a Senate committee on the NBN on Friday.

Mr Turnbull has refused to release the blue book advice he received and freedom-of-information requests for its release have been unsuccessful. Mr Turnbull’s office has been contacted for further comment.
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #157 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:49am
 
What we all knew has come to pass - their solution is inferior in every way!
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #158 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:20pm
 
St George of the Garden wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:14pm:
St George of the Garden wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 7:04pm:
Actually the rollout was ramping up, despite obstacles put in its path by LNP state and local govts. NBN Co should have been much more aggressive in its rollout, turning to running the NBN between power poles whenever Telstra attempted to slow the rollout down for its own interests.

For me the LNP sabotage makes the LNP the Party of Treason.

Someone is whinging mining is hollowing out manufacturing. The NBN would have rectified that in many ways—optimising the potential of 3D printing, boosting education, health etc.


utter wank...  but I will give you the 3D printing argument is a new one.  Stupid of course, but a new one,


You obviously have no idea of the file sizes to do with 3D printing.


they are the kinds of files many many times smaller than the types of files we already download.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #159 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:22pm
 
IM fascinated by the argument that the NBN will make less money because of these supposedly slower speeds.  it is A MONOPOLY and its charges are determined largely by itself.  and since the NBN itself expected to sell mainly 12Mbps speeds the argument is silly.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #160 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:23pm
 
Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:49am:
What we all knew has come to pass - their solution is inferior in every way!


but affordable, will be delivered decades quicker and actually be in place before most of us retire or die.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #161 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:40pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:23pm:
Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:49am:
What we all knew has come to pass - their solution is inferior in every way!


but affordable, will be delivered decades quicker and actually be in place before most of us retire or die.


Longweekend, what books, articles and facts have you read regarding optical fibre to the home and optical fibre to the node? You seem to be a person who has no idea what he is talking about, but just likes to voice his political preference whilst disregarding the economical and technological values of either side.
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #162 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:51pm
 
LaQuinn wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:40pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:23pm:
Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:49am:
What we all knew has come to pass - their solution is inferior in every way!


but affordable, will be delivered decades quicker and actually be in place before most of us retire or die.


Longweekend, what books, articles and facts have you read regarding optical fibre to the home and optical fibre to the node? You seem to be a person who has no idea what he is talking about, but just likes to voice his political preference whilst disregarding the economical and technological values of either side.
LaQuinn, longweekend58 doesn't bother with inconveniences like facts. He just says what he wants to believe.

He obviously hasn't even read the history. If he had, he'd know that, by all reports, the Coalition's plan will probably take as long to deliver as that of the previous government and possibly longer. The history also shows that the Coalition's plan is so inferior that it will be obsolete before it's finished (it may even be obsolete now). Replacing all that obsolete hardware, soon after it's installed, will no doubt be more expensive than doing the job right in the first place. Then there's the costs of the poorer performance of the inferior technology.
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #163 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 4:00pm
 
LaQuinn wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:40pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:23pm:
Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:49am:
What we all knew has come to pass - their solution is inferior in every way!


but affordable, will be delivered decades quicker and actually be in place before most of us retire or die.


Longweekend, what books, articles and facts have you read regarding optical fibre to the home and optical fibre to the node? You seem to be a person who has no idea what he is talking about, but just likes to voice his political preference whilst disregarding the economical and technological values of either side.


He's been like a broken record since the very day the NBN was announced.

It's definitely political, technically he has no idea.

Thinks the only ones it'll benefit are porn-downloaders... and that it will be obsolete in a week...
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longweekend58
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Re: NBN progress?
Reply #164 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 4:16pm
 
LaQuinn wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:40pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 3:23pm:
Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:49am:
What we all knew has come to pass - their solution is inferior in every way!


but affordable, will be delivered decades quicker and actually be in place before most of us retire or die.


Longweekend, what books, articles and facts have you read regarding optical fibre to the home and optical fibre to the node? You seem to be a person who has no idea what he is talking about, but just likes to voice his political preference whilst disregarding the economical and technological values of either side.


You seem to be confused.  I can argue the technical merits way better than most but I also can argue the economic and cost-benefit point of view.  most pro-NBNers have only one position - 'I want it' and that's it.  What about the cost, what about the benefit?

I have repeatedly asked for applications that the NBN can do that the EXISTING network cannot do nevermind the FTTN model and all Ive read is some truly embarrasing twaddle like.. (and I kid you not)... ONLINE SHOPPING!  and now we have 3D printing because there is some massive pent-up demand for that (which you can do on ADLS anyhow).

if you want to debate the topic then extend the argument beyond raw POTENTIAL speed.
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