Australian Politics Forum - The psychology of denial

miketrees Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6490 Gender:	Re: The psychology of denial Reply #15 - Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 12:05pm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance I think this explains a lot
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muso

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #16 - Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 2:21pm

A little bit of that, combined with the fact that changes in the environment are creeping and subtle.

Gradually the fishing catch has been dropping in a particular lake, but it was pretty much the same as last year, so it's normal. An octogenarian talks about taking home huge catches back in the 1940s, but it's not relevant because it was so far in the past.

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #17 - Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 5:28pm

muso wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 2:21pm:

A little bit of that, combined with the fact that changes in the environment are creeping and subtle.

Gradually the fishing catch has been dropping in a particular lake, but it was pretty much the same as last year, so it's normal. An octogenarian talks about taking home huge catches back in the 1940s, but it's not relevant because it was so far in the past.

boiled frog syndrome... cognitive dissonance can't be too far from that tree can it?? Groupthink wise it would seem to be the same story?!!?

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #18 - Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 5:55pm

muso wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04am:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 6:45am:

Lol, is muso calling me a troll? Hey muso- I'm saving the planet mate not pretending I'm above it all like Ajax!!

People like me call these blokes out and only a true fascist would take the side with the most vested interests!

Go the stock market yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Shocked

Climate Change is a consumption problem. It's a waste problem. The fat has to be trimmed and that means vacuous tools on the net should, once in awhile, get served a head full of bourbon and coke induced manic laughter!

It's much more than a waste problem. Even if we cut back the waste, we'd still have a problem. If we smoke crack, live in caves and sing kumbaya like 21st century hippies, we'll all go broke.

I've seen what happens to a country when it goes broke. Do you think they worry about luxuries like waste minimisation or biodiversity in such countries? They do not. Anything that moves is eaten, waste oil is dumped. They have government environmental departments that do nothing. They don't have the resources. The country needs to be able to bring in renewable energy projects. This costs money.

Death, This is a serious issue. Some people are probably beyond reason, but for others reading this, your personal snipes about crack smoking don't help the case one bit.
If you want to help save the planet, don't spam with personal attacks. I know that you mean well, but if you continue with this, I will suspend you.

We simply have to stop putting the brakes on innovation: coal fired power is basically your steam engine from back yonder pulling,... guess what===> coal,...out from under the ground at a faster rate than could be achieved otherwise. THIS IS THE SITUATION FROM WHERE THE PHENOMENON KNOWN AS JEVONS PARADOX GOT ITS NAME!!

The brakes on technology have been pulled by the fascist regulated market pwned by globalists such as Murdoch and his confused brethren of planet accountant agents smiths! Middle men love waste... that is why it continues!

Does ' an economy' really mean 'economy'?? No, it can't: just like 'representative democracy' can't mean 'democracy'!

People make economies and this means middle men must be afforded opportunity to call themselves entrepreneurs; hence waste; hence 19th century elephants in the room!!

You, dear muso, have given the wrong definition of waste: think along the lines of that age old year 11 concept of 'opportunity cost'. The only trick the greedy have is to send others on a wild goose chase and to make use of that time afforded to them by the sending of the foe on said wild goose chase... Cheesy

The costs of Government Intervention in the free market are massive.. but so are the costs of not regulating them properly: GROUPTHINK BREEDS MANY PROBLEMS AND TO THINK THIS COUNTRY OR INDEED THE WORLD WILL FIND THE NECESSARY INSPIRATION TO INNOVATE VIA MURDOCHS WORLD VIEW BEING RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROAT IS SIMPLY WACKED OUT BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION.

NO GOOD EVER CAME FROM THE WASTE OF RESOURCES- AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT NAPOLEON SAID ABOUT THE RESOURCE OF time
!

Wink

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #19 - Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 5:58pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 10:22am:

muso wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 11:29am:

Ajax wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 10:34am:

Again you're using Mann & Co. Hockey shhhtick methods and models.

Please tell me what happened to the medieval warm period and the mini ice age in that graph you keep posting....???

No. There have been at least 14 different independent studies since that original regional study was posted in the IPCC FAR. Every one of them shows that the Medieval Warm period was cooler than the current decade.

Do you suffer from short term memory loss? The orginal study was over a much less extensive area. It relied heavily on tree ring data. There are far more accurate proxies available and a large number of proxies agree fairly closely.

The Medieval Warm period and the Little Ice Ages were probably regional events. For the Hockey Stick Ancient history, read here and educate yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

It's from Wikipedia, but the references are accurately reported.

I've already explained the issues with the first and last graph, but you choose to ignore it.

If you look here there are just as many papers (or more) that confirm the medieval was at least as hot as today or hotter.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379729924

It just goes to show that the science is FAR from settled.

Which in that case how on Earth can they pass a tax on the air we breath.......??????

[b]IS IT JUST ME OR AM I WITNESSING ajax UTILISING THE ARGUMENT OF consensus???

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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muso

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #20 - Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 6:31pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 5:55pm:

We simply have to stop putting the brakes on innovation: coal fired power is basically your steam engine from back yonder pulling,... guess what===> coal,...out from under the ground at a faster rate than could be achieved otherwise. THIS IS THE SITUATION FROM WHERE THE PHENOMENON KNOWN AS JEVONS PARADOX GOT ITS NAME!!

The brakes on technology have been pulled by the fascist regulated market pwned by globalists such as Murdoch and his confused brethren of planet accountant agents smiths! Middle men love waste... that is why it continues!

Does ' an economy' really mean 'economy'?? No, it can't: just like 'representative democracy' can't mean 'democracy'!

People make economies and this means middle men must be afforded opportunity to call themselves entrepreneurs; hence waste; hence 19th century elephants in the room!!

You, dear muso, have given the wrong definition of waste: think along the lines of that age old year 11 concept of 'opportunity cost'. The only trick the greedy have is to send others on a wild goose chase and to make use of that time afforded to them by the sending of the foe on said wild goose chase... Cheesy

The costs of Government Intervention in the free market are massive.. but so are the costs of not regulating them properly: GROUPTHINK BREEDS MANY PROBLEMS AND TO THINK THIS COUNTRY OR INDEED THE WORLD WILL FIND THE NECESSARY INSPIRATION TO INNOVATE VIA MURDOCHS WORLD VIEW BEING RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROAT IS SIMPLY WACKED OUT BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION.

NO GOOD EVER CAME FROM THE WASTE OF RESOURCES- AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT NAPOLEON SAID ABOUT THE RESOURCE OF time
!

Wink

That was the closest thing you've posted to being a coherent post. I don't agree with everything you said, and I didn't follow parts of it, but try to keep up that standard and drop the personal insults. They don't do your credibility any good.

The key is to ease into a renewable economy, and start to place value on all natural resources. We need to move away from coal and oil and replace them with clean energy. On that I'm sure most people will agree.

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miketrees

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #21 - Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 6:45pm

Our world problem is that every country/ corporation has to move at the same time.

Anyone who gets out in front and adopts expensive renewable s is going to go broke in the short term.

I think any Country that adopts carbon pricing/ carbon taxes has to put taxes on imports from countries that have no carbon tax.

I just cant see the world cooperating on carbon

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muso

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #22 - Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 7:39pm

miketrees wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 6:45pm:

Our world problem is that every country/ corporation has to move at the same time.

Anyone who gets out in front and adopts expensive renewable s is going to go broke in the short term.

I think any Country that adopts carbon pricing/ carbon taxes has to put taxes on imports from countries that have no carbon tax.

I just cant see the world cooperating on carbon

Well some of the most successful countries in the world have a carbon tax. These include China, Japan, South Korea, India, South Africa, most countries in Europe, some Provinces in Canada, some States in the US etc, but it's not necessarily the way to go. The way that British Columbia approached the carbon tax is good, because some of the carbon tax proceeds ends up in the hands of the population. They love it.

http://www.economist.com/node/18989175

The problem with carbon tax on electricity generation is that the cost is passed on the the consumer and the generator doesn't suffer any loss in profit. If the pressure was on the generator then they would have to find innovative ways to generate electricity that doesn't involve coal. For example, Plantation timber wastes, sugar cane bagasse etc. All of these substances can be introduced into a coal fired power station.

The other factor is that renewable power is coming down in price rapidly, whereas coal generation is getting more and more expensive. In many cases, governments subsidise diesel and other fuels. If they subsidised biofuels instead, they might stand a chance.

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« Last Edit: Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 7:54pm by muso »

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #23 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 3:14pm

muso wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 6:31pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 5:55pm:

We simply have to stop putting the brakes on innovation: coal fired power is basically your steam engine from back yonder pulling,... guess what===> coal,...out from under the ground at a faster rate than could be achieved otherwise. THIS IS THE SITUATION FROM WHERE THE PHENOMENON KNOWN AS JEVONS PARADOX GOT ITS NAME!!

The brakes on technology have been pulled by the fascist regulated market pwned by globalists such as Murdoch and his confused brethren of planet accountant agents smiths! Middle men love waste... that is why it continues!

Does ' an economy' really mean 'economy'?? No, it can't: just like 'representative democracy' can't mean 'democracy'!

People make economies and this means middle men must be afforded opportunity to call themselves entrepreneurs; hence waste; hence 19th century elephants in the room!!

You, dear muso, have given the wrong definition of waste: think along the lines of that age old year 11 concept of 'opportunity cost'. The only trick the greedy have is to send others on a wild goose chase and to make use of that time afforded to them by the sending of the foe on said wild goose chase... Cheesy

The costs of Government Intervention in the free market are massive.. but so are the costs of not regulating them properly: GROUPTHINK BREEDS MANY PROBLEMS AND TO THINK THIS COUNTRY OR INDEED THE WORLD WILL FIND THE NECESSARY INSPIRATION TO INNOVATE VIA MURDOCHS WORLD VIEW BEING RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROAT IS SIMPLY WACKED OUT BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION.

NO GOOD EVER CAME FROM THE WASTE OF RESOURCES- AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT NAPOLEON SAID ABOUT THE RESOURCE OF time
!

Wink

That was the closest thing you've posted to being a coherent post. I don't agree with everything you said, and I didn't follow parts of it, but try to keep up that standard and drop the personal insults. They don't do your credibility any good.

The key is to ease into a renewable economy, and start to place value on all natural resources. We need to move away from coal and oil and replace them with clean energy. On that I'm sure most people will agree.

To 'decouple' economic growth from fossil fuel use as C. Milne would put it!!

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: The psychology of denial
Reply #24 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 3:21pm

miketrees wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 6:45pm:

Our world problem is that every country/ corporation has to move at the same time.

Anyone who gets out in front and adopts expensive renewable s is going to go broke in the short term.

I think any Country that adopts carbon pricing/ carbon taxes has to put taxes on imports from countries that have no carbon tax.

I just cant see the world cooperating on carbon

No, I don't think that is correct. That may seem to be correct on the first superficial inspection courtesy of groupthink powered by the propaganda of vested interests but on closer inspection the truth will reveal the economy of it all.

Oh what a concept: THE ECONOMIES OF SCALE.

THE PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IN THE FREE MARKET IS YEAR 11 ECONOMICS: what is the worlds biggest market failure again?

ECONOMIES ARE MEANT TO BE ROBUST... THIS IS ALL VERY SIMPLE STUFF AND THE GLOBALIST MEDIA IS THERE TO INTERCEPT THE MESSAGE TO THE MASSES Wink

THE GLOBALIST MEDIA IS NOT THERE TO EDUCATE YOU!!

Cheesy

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: The psychology of denial Reply #25 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 3:23pm ALTHOUGH, to give credibility to mike trees, he did say short-term so fair enough but still I wish to get my two cents in
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