Australian Politics Forum - The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems

|dev|null

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #120 - Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:40pm

Grendel wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:21pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 24^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

Rather like many Christians belief their word is as well. To them, the Bible is inspired and the literal word of God.

I see more similarities than differences in all the Opiates of the world. Makes me wonder why you people get your knickers in twist over your fellow God believers. Cheesy

You are clueless aren't you... your chioice in Islam today, is Dhimmitude, Submission/Conversion or Death... this is not the choice that today's Christians offer.

Interesting qualification there. What about the Christians of last week, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago?

Brian often makes the point that the Christianity of today is very different to the Christianity of yesteryear. That Christianity justified enslavement, exploitation, intolerance, hatred and bigotry. Rather like you do. Cheesy

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muso

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #121 - Oct 25^th, 2013 at 7:29pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 11:15pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 9:50pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 9:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 8:19pm:

muso wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 7:14pm:

Matthew 7:3

Yep, pretty much so for Yadda. Wink

Matthew 7:3 is not a 'get out of jail free' for all arseholes, or even all comers. It is an injunction for people of the SAME moral framework, the same community.
So it is not a call to accommodate Muslim jihad which falls outside all shared or decent moral frameworks at the time of Matthew 7:3 or since.

Matthew 7:3 is not a call to accommodate every murderous teaching of Islam.

Actually, Soren it is an admonishment against hubris.

Something all bigots suffer from. Roll Eyes

Ah.

And all moslems then ?

Many Muslims. I wouldn't say all. A few Christians too.

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #122 - Oct 25^th, 2013 at 7:53pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Grendel wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:21pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 24^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

Rather like many Christians belief their word is as well. To them, the Bible is inspired and the literal word of God.

I see more similarities than differences in all the Opiates of the world. Makes me wonder why you people get your knickers in twist over your fellow God believers. Cheesy

You are clueless aren't you... your chioice in Islam today, is Dhimmitude, Submission/Conversion or Death... this is not the choice that today's Christians offer.

Interesting qualification there. What about the Christians of last week, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago?

Brian often makes the point that the Christianity of today is very different to the Christianity of yesteryear. That Christianity justified enslavement, exploitation, intolerance, hatred and bigotry. Rather like you do. Cheesy

Ok prove it....
1/ I know you can't prove it about me because it's a lie.
2/ How far back in history and how much cherry picking you gonna do?

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Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #123 - Oct 25^th, 2013 at 8:54pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Interesting qualification there. What about the Christians of last week, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago?

Brian often makes the point that the Christianity of today is very different to the Christianity of yesteryear.

Whereas Islam is NOT AT ALL different today from the way it was on the day Mohammed died 1400 years ago.

But this salient point escapes both you and Brain and all the other blow-hard-thick-as-five-smacking-firedoors crazies.

You guys are stupid in a forever-innovative and surprising and unexpected way.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #124 - Oct 25^th, 2013 at 11:15pm

Soren wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 8:54pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Interesting qualification there. What about the Christians of last week, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago?

Brian often makes the point that the Christianity of today is very different to the Christianity of yesteryear.

Whereas Islam is NOT AT ALL different today from the way it was on the day Mohammed died 1400 years ago.

Actually it is, Soren. Only a fool assumes that. There has been several massive schisms, changes in interpretation and modernist movements within Islam.

Indeed, the very existence of the Salafist movement shows that Takfiri extremists believe that Islam has changed since it's inception.

Of course, your prejudice prevents you admitting that but hey, what else can we expect from you except ignorance? Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #125 - Oct 26^th, 2013 at 1:39am

muso wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 7:29pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 11:15pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 9:50pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 9:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 8:19pm:

muso wrote on Sep 29^th, 2013 at 7:14pm:

Matthew 7:3

Yep, pretty much so for Yadda. Wink

Matthew 7:3 is not a 'get out of jail free' for all arseholes, or even all comers. It is an injunction for people of the SAME moral framework, the same community.
So it is not a call to accommodate Muslim jihad which falls outside all shared or decent moral frameworks at the time of Matthew 7:3 or since.

Matthew 7:3 is not a call to accommodate every murderous teaching of Islam.

Actually, Soren it is an admonishment against
hubris.

Something all bigots suffer from. Roll Eyes

Ah.

And all moslems then ?

Many Muslims. I wouldn't say all. A few Christians too.

muso,

All moslems.

muso,

All moslems, who declare themselves to be moslems, are faultless people. Tongue

All moslems, are the faultless people.

[goto my post #17 for details confirming this perfect human condition of the moslems]

muso,

'A few Christians too.'
.....may claim that they consider themselves faultless.

I have not met any.

muso,

All moslems. know with a certainty, that they [the moslems] are the faultless people.

How else could men, with good conscience, murder their inferiors

[witness the actions of the atrocities committed by the 'faultless' moslems in Iraq, Egypt, Syria, etc], except that they were doing God's work ???

Those faultless people,
bomb public markets,
they bomb and murder people at funerals,
they bomb and murder people attending mosques,
they bomb and murder people attending churches.

Dictionary;
hubris = = excessive pride or self-confidence. excessive pride or presumption towards the gods, leading to nemesis.

muso,

These people, these MOSLEM bombers are righteous people.

They are righteous moslems, who in good conscience, righteously murder, people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe,.i+++

muso,

I am a Christian.

And it is a great sin and a great moral error for me to shine a light upon the actions of such faultless people.

They refer to themselves, as moslems.

The righteous people.

Quote:

Who is a moslem ?

"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."

[i.e. these, are the Allah, and the Mohammed, that are described in the Koran and Hadith]

By making such a declaration;

"I am a moslem."

;

.....every moslem, is choosing to directly associate themselves with the 'religious' violence which ISLAM justifies, legitimises, promotes and encourages [within the moslem community].

And every moslem is thereby associating >> themselves << with every violent criminal act which is purposefully done, 'in the name of Allah/ISLAM'.

p.s.

muso,

I sleep well at night.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #126 - Oct 26^th, 2013 at 11:03am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 11:15pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 8:54pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Interesting qualification there. What about the Christians of last week, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago?

Brian often makes the point that the Christianity of today is very different to the Christianity of yesteryear.

Whereas Islam is NOT AT ALL different today from the way it was on the day Mohammed died 1400 years ago.

Actually it is, Soren. Only a fool assumes that. There has been several massive schisms, changes in interpretation and modernist movements within Islam.

Indeed, the very existence of the Salafist movement shows that Takfiri extremists believe that Islam has changed since it's inception.

Of course, your prejudice prevents you admitting that but hey, what else can we expect from you except ignorance? Roll Eyes

Come on bwian be totally honest and accurate for once... I'm still waiting for the correct information to come from you... a few hints... minority, apostates, not the real religion, don't just drop in the word Takfiri and not go into it, or call them extremists as if that means the same thing as it does in the West where extremists are normally very small minorities... etc, etc, etc... A Takfiri Sunni sees the world in black and white, Muslim and Kafir... a Takfiri's goal/mission is to re-create the Khalifate... oh dear how many Islamic NATIONS want to do that Bwian. Now we begin to see the numbers eh.

Much like the Catholics the Sunnis see themselves as the one true church... as with the Catholics, Sunnis command the greater number... Sunnis are about 85% of Muslims worldwide. The Sunni/Shia split is basically a political one. How many Sunnis are Takfiri bwian.. a couple, some, most... nations of them?

In my opinion the Arab Muslims/Sunnis, 85% of the Muslim world is quite a block and they and their Sunni brothers basically the other 15% agree on the goal of an Islamic world.

Dhimmi/Convert/Death.

Whereas Christianity does not hold such goals in the modern world... a point made to you over and over again.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #127 - Oct 26^th, 2013 at 3:08pm

Why do I need to "go into it", Beowulf?

I assume that we are all familiar with the term, although, it appears from your post that you're not. A Takfiri doesn't have to believe in the Caliphate, indeed, some find the idea blasphemous. A Takfiri is a zealot - their interpretation of Islam is the only only valid one. Rather like the ideal of the Christian Puritans, if you need another simile.

Not all Sunni Muslims believe in the re-establishment of the Caliphate and I'm unsure why you believe that is the case.

A Khalifist, OTH does believe in the re-establishment of a Caliphate. A Takfiri can be a Khalifist. A Sunni or a Sh'ia can be a Khaifist, as can any of the other denominations or branches or schools of Islam. Khalifa overlays them all as an additional belief, Beowulf.

As for them being extremists, of course they are. By definition, a Takfiri is an extremist. A Salafist is an extremist. A Khalifist can be an extremist (depends on how much they believe the Caliphate should be re-established and what methods should be taken to achieve it). Mainstream Muslims don't accept their viewpoints and are all too often the victims of the adherents to them.

That you appear to believe all Muslims are extremists and should be condemned through guilt by association appears obvious, though. Roll Eyes

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #128 - Oct 26^th, 2013 at 7:01pm

Good grief... strictly... Kufr in Arabic means disbelief, atheism, or blasphemy. Kafir is the adjective which means somebody who is an infidel, atheist or heathen. Takfir is to attribute this adjective to someone, eg; someone who castigates people and/or excommunicates them as Kafirs.

Sorry bwian but a Takfiri (zealot) certainly does believe in re-creating the Khalifate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir

Yes a Takfiri is a "zealot" bwian, as you say, but who are you to judge, they may just be a moderate by Islamic standards, right?

Let's see what recent leader in Iran was a believer in the re-creation of the Khalifate and the return of the Mahdi? Ever watch him give speeches to fellow believers and the military? I have. They are all zealots bwian if you don't want to call them Takfiri. Pedant that you are.

Now where were we? Oh yes... using your own words...

A Takfiri can be a Khalifist. A Sunni or a Sh'ia can be a Khaifist, as can any of the other denominations or branches or schools of Islam.

Gee thanks bwian Roll Eyes

A takfiri "doesn't have to" go to the loo, but they do....

I crown you... Bwian, King of the Weasel Words, spineless apologetic.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #129 - Oct 26^th, 2013 at 10:01pm

As other Muslims consider Takfiri as extremists, just as Christians do zealots or puritans, Beowulf I'll take their word for it.

Takfiri do not necessarily have to be Khalifa. They tend to go hand-in-hand but it isn't necessarily a precondition. Just as a Orthodox Jew doesn't necessarily have to be a member to of the The Temple Institute or the Temple Mount and Eretz Yisrael Faithful Movement.

I see though, you're returning to your normal modus operandi, so I won't be bothering with your next post as I know it will merely contain either one or all of these:

1. Personal insults;
2. A silly picture;
3. A silly cartoon.

That appears to pass in your mind for "debate". Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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muso

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #130 - Oct 27^th, 2013 at 9:53am

Yadda wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 1:39am:

Quote:

Ah.

And all moslems then ?

Many Muslims. I wouldn't say all. A few Christians too.

muso,

All moslems, who declare themselves to be moslems, are faultless people. Tongue

All moslems, are the faultless people.

How does that relate to the fact that I said that most Muslims and some Christians are bigots?

I don't follow your line of argument.

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Yadda

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #131 - Oct 27^th, 2013 at 12:11pm

muso wrote on Oct 27^th, 2013 at 9:53am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 1:39am:

Quote:

Ah.

And all moslems then ?

Many Muslims. I wouldn't say all. A few Christians too.

muso,

All moslems, who declare themselves to be moslems, are faultless people. Tongue

All moslems, are the faultless people.

How does that relate to the fact that I said that most Muslims and some Christians are bigots?

I don't follow your line of argument.

We two, are standing on different mountaintops muso.

But i'm sure that your own perspective, from your own vantage point, is a valid one. Wink

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #132 - Oct 27^th, 2013 at 8:44pm

Grendel wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 7:01pm:

Good grief... strictly... Kufr in Arabic means disbelief, atheism, or blasphemy. Kafir is the adjective which means somebody who is an infidel, atheist or heathen. Takfir is to attribute this adjective to someone, eg; someone who castigates people and/or excommunicates them as Kafirs.

Sorry bwian but a Takfiri (zealot) certainly does believe in re-creating the Khalifate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir

Yes a Takfiri is a "zealot" bwian, as you say, but who are you to judge, they may just be a moderate by Islamic standards, right?

Let's see what recent leader in Iran was a believer in the re-creation of the Khalifate and the return of the Mahdi? Ever watch him give speeches to fellow believers and the military? I have. They are all zealots bwian if you don't want to call them Takfiri. Pedant that you are.

Now where were we? Oh yes... using your own words...

A Takfiri can be a Khalifist. A Sunni or a Sh'ia can be a Khaifist, as can any of the other denominations or branches or schools of Islam.

Gee thanks bwian Roll Eyes

A takfiri "doesn't have to" go to the loo, but they do....

I crown you... Bwian, King of the Weasel Words, spineless apologetic.

Got nothing eh bwian.... just more excuses and denial of the real world.
You never change bwian you choose to ignore that which you cannot confront.
You really are a spineless apologetic.
I note you ran away before I even replied... how usual of you.
It is you who cannot hold a reasoned debate.
Who flees the truth and hides behind ignorance and bigotry.
Oh just so you aren't too disappointed I'm going for the lot this time...

You ignored everything I said about Iran.
You ignored the numbers involved.
The groups involved.
There's a lot of Takfiri in the world bwian... ignore them at your peril.
Zealotry abounds in the muslim world especially in the middle east.

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« Last Edit: Oct 27^th, 2013 at 8:52pm by Grendel »

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #133 - Oct 27^th, 2013 at 8:54pm

Quote:

Israeli Sheik: Jerusalem will soon fall to the Caliphate
Head of the northern faction of Israel's Islamic Movement, Sheikh Raed Salah, said Friday that "soon Jerusalem will be the capital of the new Muslim caliphate, and the caliph's seat will be there." Salah, an Israeli citizen, addressed an audience of 50,000 attending the Islamic Movement's 11th annual rally in Umm al-Fahm, in northern Israel. "Caliph" refers to the leader of a Muslim nation and in Arabic means "heir" or "substitute" of the prophet Muhammad. "The Israeli occupation will leave Jerusalem soon. It will happen sooner than is thought," Salah said at the rally. The event, held annually, has become an occasion for Israel's Muslim citizens to disparage their country and call for its destruction.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #134 - Oct 27^th, 2013 at 9:04pm
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