Australian Politics Forum - The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems

Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #135 - Oct 28^th, 2013 at 12:41am He's no longer in power, Beowulf, in case you missed the Iranian elections earlier this year. Iran is now starting to negotiate about dismantling it's nuclear weapons programme. Iran has learnt that it cannot defy the rest of the world.
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|dev|null

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #136 - Oct 28^th, 2013 at 10:54am

Grendel is a troll. He lives in a cave or so the story tells us. Perhaps an obvious Freudian reference to his monstrousness? He certain posts like a troll. Little of content, just endless efforts at provocation and personal attack. Such a silly way to Troll. This is the way of unsubtle ones. Sensei Herbert on the otherhand, is a master Troll! Cheesy

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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gizmo_2655

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #137 - Oct 28^th, 2013 at 3:07pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

Grendel is a troll. He lives in a cave or so the story tells us. Perhaps an obvious Freudian reference to his monstrousness? He certain posts like a troll. Little of content, just endless efforts at provocation and personal attack. Such a silly way to Troll. This is the way of unsubtle ones. Sensei Herbert on the otherhand, is a master Troll! Cheesy

No. Grendel is NOT a troll...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #138 - Oct 28^th, 2013 at 5:48pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 12:41am:

He's no longer in power, Beowulf, in case you missed the Iranian elections earlier this year. Iran is now starting to negotiate about dismantling it's nuclear weapons programme. Iran has learnt that it cannot defy the rest of the world.

Oh really bwian... gee tell me something I don't know for a change oh and for a change do it without lying. Roll Eyes

It is said in many places that the goal is still the same and that Rouhani is as bad as Ahmadinejad.

You ignored my other post.
You ignored the entire Iranian military and the tens of thousands of followers that turn up to his rallies and need I say it... agree with him.

I've seen them on SBS over the years and similar rallies in different countries of the middle east... zealots by the millions bwian, nations of zealots.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #139 - Oct 28^th, 2013 at 9:28pm

Beowulf, I don't disagree that he's popular but he did lose the election which rather suggests you are puffing up his popularity for some reason. Could it be to try and paint the entire Iranian nation as being lunatics or something? You do know that even in Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has always been considered a bit extreme?

Considering that he relied upon the rural poor for his power base, a power base that has rapidly decreased in size and hence votes due to the massive demographic shifts that Iran is presenting undergoing, I think its safe to say that his viewpoint is presently rather in the minority within Iran. Most Iranians have seen what his policies of antagonism and nuclear aggrandisement have wrought to their livelihoods are aren't happy with them. Hence their rejection of him in the last election.

As to whether his replacement will be sincere in his apparent desire for rapprochement with the West and the USA in particular, we'll have to see. Unlike you, I approach such matters with an open mind. I don't automatically assume that Muslims are evil, like you when you allow your obvious prejudices to do the thinking for you. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #140 - Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:49am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 9:28pm:

Beowulf, I don't disagree that he's popular but he did lose the election which rather suggests you are puffing up his popularity for some reason. Could it be to try and paint the entire Iranian nation as being lunatics or something? You do know that even in Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has always been considered a bit extreme?

Considering that he relied upon the rural poor for his power base, a power base that has rapidly decreased in size and hence votes due to the massive demographic shifts that Iran is presenting undergoing, I think its safe to say that his viewpoint is presently rather in the minority within Iran. Most Iranians have seen what his policies of antagonism and nuclear aggrandisement have wrought to their livelihoods are aren't happy with them. Hence their rejection of him in the last election.

As to whether his replacement will be sincere in his apparent desire for rapprochement with the West and the USA in particular, we'll have to see. Unlike you, I approach such matters with an open mind. I don't automatically assume that Muslims are evil, like you when you allow your obvious prejudices to do the thinking for you. Roll Eyes

Oh I do have an open mind.
I also face reality and bwian we aren't talking about any very small minority here.
I'm not prejudiced... just facing reality something I've never known you to do... well maybe once. The rest of the time you spout nonsense flame and insult people and their intelligence.
I have a very balanced attitude towards Islam and Muslims. Unfortunately the majority I have met and know of, do not have a reciprocal attitude to non-Muslims and the West.
I suggest you pull your head out bwian because...

Oh yes bwian obvious to everyone but to you your socks and Jnr.
When you do some real research and mix with more Muslims and find that real moderates are in the minority get back to me.
Muslims moderate or zealot put their Muslim brothers first... right or wrong....

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #141 - Oct 29^th, 2013 at 10:13am

We all know... Iran's Supreme Leader is still Ali Khamenei btw.

Smooth-Talking Rouhani, Trash-Talking Ahmadinejad: Different Style, Same Substance

Whilst the West and others have been in talks with Iran they have been furthering their goals re becoming a nuclear power... Hussein wanted to lead the Arab world and so did Iran, there were factions in the Arab League due to these competing tensions. America put an end to any real competition to Iran.

Ahmadinejad later voiced these goals more publicly, and the goal of Arab Islam... the Caliphate and the mystic return of the Mahdi... We are talking about a religious state, not a secular nation. A nation led by a cleric... the Supreme Leader.

Quote:

In July 2005, Hasan Rouhani, then secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council and now president of Iran, proposed to the EU3, among other things:

* an agreement on initial limitations on uranium enrichment at the Natanz enrichment site, a facility revealed by the National Council of Resistance of Iran, the only pro-democracy organization that rejects clerical rule
*
* negotiations for full-scale operation of Natanz
*
* arrangements to import material for uranium conversion

But Rouhani, known as the "diplomatic sheikh," bragged about having duped the West in these negotiations. According to a March 2006 Telegraph article, Rouhani boasted that while nuclear talks took place in Tehran with the EU3, Iran was able to complete installation of equipment for conversion, a key stage in the nuclear fuel process, at its Isfahan plant.

The good news as the Rouhani era begins is that his words are soothing to our ears. It is good to hear from an Iranian president that he pledges to be moderate and flexible. The bad news is that Rouhani has only taken cosmetic steps to demonstrate moderation, and the West is bound to reach out even more to Rouhani because of a misperception of moderation.

Quote:

There is little evidence that Ahmadinejad and Rouhani differ on substance. A major stumbling block was and is Iran's claim to an inherent right to enrich uranium, which has been an obstacle in negotiations under successive Iranian presidents, including Ahmadinejad and Rouhani.

In addition to Iran's nuclear file, trash-talking Ahmadinejad and smooth-talking Rouhani see eye to eye on maltreatment of Iranian pro-democracy movements. Rouhani has not welcomed the National Council of Resistance of Iran, the largest unit of which is the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran (PMOI), to participate in truly competitive elections. To do so would be to renounce the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran; it bestows on the supreme leader ultimate authority.

Indeed, Rouhani continues Ahmadinejad's policy of pressuring Baghdad to murder 52 members of the PMOI

Quote:

In comparison with the Ahmadinejad era of consistency between rhetoric and actions in the quest for nuclear capability and persecution of pro-democracy groups, the Rouhani era shows consistency of actions to acquire a nuclear weapons capability and mistreatment of pro-democracy movements.

The only difference between Ahmadinejad and Rouhani is in style, not substance.

http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/09/23/smooth_talking_rouhani_trash_ta...

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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #142 - Oct 29^th, 2013 at 10:28am

More evidence of zealotry, lies and deception...(Taqiyya).
Imagine a culture, religion, way of life where lying and deception is acceptable.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/fars-says-cnn-fabricated-rouhani-translation-2...

Quote:

It may seem minor, but the controversy over the quote may depress those who had been hopeful about Rouhani. Even his relatively tepid comments were too controversial for some back home. As Meir Javedanfar writes at Iran-Israel Observer, even with CNN’s translation Rouhani seems concerned about the opinion of Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei.

“On this question,” Javedanfar writes, “he pushed the envelope as far as it could go, without endangering his position with Khamenei, who to him is far more important than Netanyahu or Obama.”

Now whether or not Rouhani was genuine in his comments, the point to be made is the reaction "back home".

Lies and deception lead to mistrust...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2013/10/03/benjamin-netanyahu-orde...

Quote:

ISRAELI PRIME Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government had ample reason to avoid speeches by former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denied the Holocaust and threatened to wipe the Jewish state off the face of the map. But it stands to reason that the Israeli prime minister would at least hear out Iran’s new president, Hassan Rouhani, who has acknowledged the Holocaust and wished Jews a happy Rosh Hashana on Twitter. But Netanyahu treats the two leaders the same.

He recently ordered Israeli diplomats to leave the United Nations General Assembly during Rouhani’s speech, just as they did during Ahmadinejad’s fiery sermons. In dismissing Rouhani this week as a “wolf in sheep’s clothing,” Netanyahu implicitly gives Ahmadinejad a measure of credit for making his intentions transparent. “Ahmadinejad said, ‘We can get to nuclear weapons with a frown,’ ” Netanyahu said on “CBS This Morning.” “Rouhani says, ‘we can get to nuclear weapons with a smile.’ ”

In fact, Rouhani goes beyond the standard assurances that Iran will never develop a nuclear weapon and says his government will resolve all outstanding concerns about the program in the next 12 months. It’s too early to tell if those are empty promises, or a sign of a real change. No one faults Netanyahu for his skepticism.

Yet anyone who has kept their fingers on the pulse of this issue know that Iran's military have been deeply involved and clearly present at every step of the way in Iran's nuclear development and very closely aligned with Ahmadinejad.

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #143 - Oct 29^th, 2013 at 12:48pm Grendel wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:49am: Oh I do have an open mind. The most ironic statement of the week goes to...!
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #144 - Oct 29^th, 2013 at 5:27pm \|dev\|null wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 12:48pm: Grendel wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:49am: Oh I do have an open mind. The most ironic statement of the week goes to...! More open than yours Jnr... you're just an ignorant bigot.
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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #145 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:44am Good to see your level of "debate" hasn't improved. Nor your sense of humour.
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Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #146 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 7:51pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 3:08pm:

Why do I need to "go into it", Beowulf?

I assume that we are all familiar with the term, although, it appears from your post that you're not. A Takfiri doesn't have to believe in the Caliphate, indeed, some find the idea blasphemous. A Takfiri is a zealot - their interpretation of Islam is the only only valid one. Rather like the ideal of the Christian Puritans, if you need another simile.

Not all Sunni Muslims believe in the re-establishment of the Caliphate and I'm unsure why you believe that is the case.

A Khalifist, OTH does believe in the re-establishment of a Caliphate. A Takfiri can be a Khalifist. A Sunni or a Sh'ia can be a Khaifist, as can any of the other denominations or branches or schools of Islam. Khalifa overlays them all as an additional belief, Beowulf.

As for them being extremists, of course they are. By definition, a Takfiri is an extremist. A Salafist is an extremist. A Khalifist can be an extremist (depends on how much they believe the Caliphate should be re-established and what methods should be taken to achieve it). Mainstream Muslims don't accept their viewpoints and are all too often the victims of the adherents to them.

That you appear to believe all Muslims are extremists and should be condemned through guilt by association appears obvious, though. Roll Eyes

Talk about a many headed monster...

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Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #147 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 8:16pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 11:15pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 8:54pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Interesting qualification there. What about the Christians of last week, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago?

Brian often makes the point that the Christianity of today is very different to the Christianity of yesteryear.

Whereas Islam is NOT AT ALL different today from the way it was on the day Mohammed died 1400 years ago.

Actually it is, Soren. Only a fool assumes that. There has been several massive schisms, changes in interpretation and modernist movements within Islam.

Indeed, the very existence of the Salafist movement shows that Takfiri extremists believe that Islam has changed since it's inception.

Of course, your prejudice prevents you admitting that but hey, what else can we expect from you except ignorance? Roll Eyes

Really?

So, which version of Islam would you be happy to live under?

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Yadda

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #148 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:49am

Yadda wrote on Apr 9^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

The Alawite moslems [i.e. the Syrian government forces] consider the Sunni moslem faction to be infidels.

And the Sunni moslem faction [i.e. the insurgents] consider the Alawite moslems to be infidels.

Quote:

....in the eyes of Moslems, anyone who is against him, can be called a kafir
and then such barbaric practices get the blessing of the mullah, the representative of Allah. It is common knowledge that the Iranians call the Iraqis, infidels and vice versa. It is truly ingenious how Allah is made to support anything that the believer wants to do for his own satisfaction.

http://islamreview.org/korankafir/chapter15.html

i.e.
For the person who identifies himself as a moslem;

e.g.

"I am among the righteous. I am a moslem!"

.....any person, ANY PERSON, who disagrees or opposes the will of this moslem, [he] will always be regarded by the moslem, as a Kafir/infidel/as a piece of dog shiite under his shoe.

e.g.
In the lingering conflict that is being waged [wager-ed ?] in Syria, the Alawite moslems are the government forces [of Assad and his 'cronies'].

And the Sunnis moslems are the 'insurgents' [the 'terrorists'].

n.b.

Each side in this conflict has determined,

that they 'are' the real moslems, and that their opponents 'are' infidels, oppressing the innocent and righteous moslems!

In this lingering conflict that is going on in Syria, the Alawite regard the Sunni moslems as infidels, BECAUSE, THEY ARE NOT Alawite/Shia!!!

And contra-wise, the Sunnis regard the Shia/Alawite moslems as infidels, BECAUSE, THEY ARE NOT Sunnis!!!

THIS MOSLEM 'DEMARCATION' PROBLEM [i.e. "Everyone who rejects my will, is a filthy infidel!"
],
HIGHLIGHTS >> THE PROBLEM << WHICH WILL 'BITE' EVERY NON-MOSLEM ENTITY WHICH HAS DETERMINED [decided], TO TRY TO 'ACCOMMODATE' A MOSLEM [guest community].

i.e.
If ever a NON-MOSLEM ENTITY allows itself to be a host for a moslem community, the demands coming from moslems, for accommodation of their 'religious' requirements rights [i.e. the ever so slow, ISLAMISATION of the host society!] will always be 'proportional' and progressive, BUT, these progressive demands will be never ending.

And over time, the demands from the moslem [community] for accommodation of their 'religious' requirements rights [made to a NON-MOSLEM ENTITY], will grow more and more onerous [and more and more deleterious to the 'interests' [i.e. political power] of the NON-MOSLEM ENTITY].

But if ever the NON-MOSLEM ENTITY refuses to 'accommodate' the will of a moslem [i.e. all of his desires], the moslem will bide his time until he is strong enough, and once the moslem feels himself strong enough, the moslem will then begin to engage in a 'hot war' against those infidel hosts [the NON-MOSLEM host ENTITY], who are 'oppressing' the moslem, by refusing to 'accommodate' his right to practice his 'religion' [i.e. moslem 'religious' requirements which in effect, will set moslems above and superior to all non-moslems, in a society].

'Immigrant youths' in the Netherlands, protesting about 'injustice' against the moslem community.

The above is an nice 'theory' ?

Anti-moslem paranoia ?

....read on --->

AN EXAMPLE inadvertent exposure, of the real moslem intent [towards all disbelievers],
....an intent which is endorsed and 'authorised' by 'mainstream' ISLAM, and which is revealed exposed by this prestigious moslem scholar......

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain.
Polite and softly spoken....
He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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|dev|null

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #149 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:54am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 3:07pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

Grendel is a troll. He lives in a cave or so the story tells us. Perhaps an obvious Freudian reference to his monstrousness? He certain posts like a troll. Little of content, just endless efforts at provocation and personal attack. Such a silly way to Troll. This is the way of unsubtle ones. Sensei Herbert on the otherhand, is a master Troll! Cheesy

No. Grendel is NOT a troll...

His MO is that of a troll. Cheesy

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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