Australian Politics Forum - The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems

Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #180 - Nov 8^th, 2013 at 5:08pm

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 2:47pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

I fail to see how it is relevant. I am not intending to move to a Muslim country at any time, so I will never live under any version of Islam. If I was, I would like to live under the tolerant and inclusive version of Islam practised in most of Indonesia. Cheesy

So what aspects of Islam are you defending?

I am not asking which Muslim majority country has the most western characteristics.
What you like about Indonesia is what is least Islamic about it - tolerance and inclusiveness.

What I am asking you is what aspects of Islam are you defending?

I'd have thought it was bloody obvious by now that I'm not defending any aspect as such of Islam. I am defending the religious freedom of Muslims. Personally, I think all religion is poppycock but that doesn't give me the right to persecute Muslims for their beliefs. For all I care, they could worship the Man in the Moon. You, on the otherhand think that because you disagree with their religion you can persecute them for their beliefs! Cheesy

SO you uncritically accept their every claim about how the world is and should be, every value judgement, every moral tenet, every plan for the future, every explanation of the past and the present?

Without question or critical remark. Because looking critically at Islam is, to you and Brain and ll those you epitomise, the same as religious persecution.

Which is a totally stupid position to have. But you rejoice in that very position.

Please explain.

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|dev|null

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #181 - Nov 8^th, 2013 at 7:14pm

Soren wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 5:08pm:

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 2:47pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

I fail to see how it is relevant. I am not intending to move to a Muslim country at any time, so I will never live under any version of Islam. If I was, I would like to live under the tolerant and inclusive version of Islam practised in most of Indonesia. Cheesy

So what aspects of Islam are you defending?

I am not asking which Muslim majority country has the most western characteristics.
What you like about Indonesia is what is least Islamic about it - tolerance and inclusiveness.

What I am asking you is what aspects of Islam are you defending?

I'd have thought it was bloody obvious by now that I'm not defending any aspect as such of Islam. I am defending the religious freedom of Muslims. Personally, I think all religion is poppycock but that doesn't give me the right to persecute Muslims for their beliefs. For all I care, they could worship the Man in the Moon. You, on the otherhand think that because you disagree with their religion you can persecute them for their beliefs! Cheesy

SO you uncritically accept their every claim about how the world is and should be, every value judgement, every moral tenet, every plan for the future, every explanation of the past and the present?

Without question or critical remark. Because looking critically at Islam is, to you and Brain and ll those you epitomise, the same as religious persecution.

Which is a totally stupid position to have. But you rejoice in that very position.

Please explain.

Why bother? you haven't comprehended what was said so far so it would be pointless attempting it. Just keep on with your religious persecution. You enjoy it. I enjoy mocking it. We're both happy. Right?

Cheesy

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #182 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 10:23am Yet another giant contribution to the debate and more unanswered questions courtesy of the Ross Bwaintwust. Who will no doubt post some more crap re this response.
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Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #183 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 1:48pm

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 2:47pm:

I'd have thought it was bloody obvious by now that I'm not defending any aspect as such of Islam. I am defending the religious freedom of Muslims.

So how is my freedom of conscience and speech, allowing me to criticise Islam, is religious persecution?

They are free to worship Allah - and I am free to say what I think about it.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #184 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 3:32pm Yet it seems the only religious freedoms he wishes to uphold are those of Muslims. It seems he is happy for Islam to impose restrictions on religious practice and tolerance.
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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #185 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 6:27pm

Soren wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 1:48pm:

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 2:47pm:

I'd have thought it was bloody obvious by now that I'm not defending any aspect as such of Islam. I am defending the religious freedom of Muslims.

So how is my freedom of conscience and speech, allowing me to criticise Islam, is religious persecution?

They are free to worship Allah - and I am free to say what I think about it.

Except when it is considered vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution, Soren. All things you should be aware of when you make your continued bigoted comments about Muslims and their religious beliefs.

Are you a Christian? Perhaps a member of Opus Dei? What about the Westboro Baptist Church? The Lord's Resistance Army? A member of the Dove World Outreach Center?

Sure looks like it, from your persecution of Muslims... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #186 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 6:28pm

Grendel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 3:32pm:

Yet it seems the only religious freedoms he wishes to uphold are those of Muslims.
It seems he is happy for Islam to impose restrictions on religious practice and tolerance.

Really? What a strange conclusion to come to, Beowulf. One could almost conclude that you're actually lying but of course I'd never suggest that about you, now would I? Roll Eyes

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #187 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 6:46pm Bwian you should stop being a hypocrite... didn't i warn you about using silly images? Nice libel job on Soren BTW bwian. Not that you're a hypocrite or bigot right?
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems Reply #188 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 9:16pm Libel? Since when was asking questions libellous, Beowulf? It is interesting. It seems OK for Freediver to ask my religion. I saw nary a peep out of you on that little effort yet you jump to Soren's defence immediately. One might question your motives, perhaps?
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Grendel

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #189 - Nov 9^th, 2013 at 10:44pm

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

Libel? Since when was asking questions libellous, Beowulf?

It is interesting. It seems OK for Freediver to ask my religion. I saw nary a peep out of you on that little effort yet you jump to Soren's defence immediately. One might question your motives, perhaps? Roll Eyes

When they clearly infer things bwian. When there are no question marks. Then they are not questions Grin

I do wish you'd stop wasting my time with all these off topic questions.

So when are you going to engage on topic bwian? You know instead of all the personal crap you so like to invest in.

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Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #190 - Nov 10^th, 2013 at 10:11am

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 1:48pm:

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 2:47pm:

I'd have thought it was bloody obvious by now that I'm not defending any aspect as such of Islam. I am defending the religious freedom of Muslims.

So how is my freedom of conscience and speech, allowing me to criticise Islam, is religious persecution?

They are free to worship Allah - and I am free to say what I think about it.

Except when it is considered vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution, Soren. All things you should be aware of when you make your continued bigoted comments about Muslims and their religious beliefs.

Are you a Christian? Perhaps a member of Opus Dei? What about the Westboro Baptist Church? The Lord's Resistance Army? A member of the Dove World Outreach Center?

Sure looks like it, from your persecution of Muslims... Roll Eyes

"considered", eh?

SO if you consider something vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution, then it is, therefore, vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution and suddenly the entire discussion is about your newly minted definition of something.

You debate with this peculiar habit all the time. You fill something with completely new meaning and then expect everyone to either to toe the new-thought line or be "considered" a bigot, racist, stupid, indulging in vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution.

I ask you: how is fear and dislike of Islam vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution? Why is it not simply a fear and dislike?

If I had a fear of heights, would I be slandering and vilifying tall buildings?

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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #191 - Nov 10^th, 2013 at 10:53am

Soren wrote on Nov 10^th, 2013 at 10:11am:

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 1:48pm:

|dev|null wrote on Nov 8^th, 2013 at 2:47pm:

I'd have thought it was bloody obvious by now that I'm not defending any aspect as such of Islam. I am defending the religious freedom of Muslims.

So how is my freedom of conscience and speech, allowing me to criticise Islam, is religious persecution?

They are free to worship Allah - and I am free to say what I think about it.

Except when it is considered vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution, Soren. All things you should be aware of when you make your continued bigoted comments about Muslims and their religious beliefs.

Are you a Christian? Perhaps a member of Opus Dei? What about the Westboro Baptist Church? The Lord's Resistance Army? A member of the Dove World Outreach Center?

Sure looks like it, from your persecution of Muslims... Roll Eyes

"considered", eh?

Yep. Remember, if an action was taken against you, it would be the courts considering it, so perhaps you should also consider it before you post?

Quote:

SO if you consider something vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution, then it is, therefore, vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution and suddenly the entire discussion is about your newly minted definition of something.

Nope, if the courts decide it is, it is, Soren. Forgotten what happened to Daniel Scot and Danny Nalliah?

Quote:

You debate with this peculiar habit all the time. You fill something with completely new meaning and then expect everyone to either to toe the new-thought line or be "considered" a bigot, racist, stupid, indulging in vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution.

I don't "fill something with completely new meaning," Soren. The "meaning" is always there, it's just that you, as a bigot don't recognise it. It takes a more reasonable voice, one whom can and does identify "it" as to what it is. If it's promoting the superiority of one "race" over another, it is racism. If it is persecuting a religion, it's bigotry or religious persecution. These are the correct labels, nothing more. If you don't like the labels, then stop making these arguments. Simple, really, isn't it?

Quote:

I ask you: how is fear and dislike of Islam vilification/libel/slander/incitement/religious persecution? Why is it not simply a fear and dislike?

It becomes vilification when it is taken out into the public sphere and promoted as you do, continually, Soren. It is based on distortions, ignorance and as you point out, fear and loathing which is of course prejudice and intolerance. Society has decreed these things are not acceptable in the case of innocent members of a groups such as Muslims. As I keep pointing out, you're an Islamophobe ad you've just admitted it by proclaiming your motive is "fear and loathing". Wink

Quote:

If I had a fear of heights, would I be slandering and vilifying tall buildings?

Tall buildings are not people, Soren. You are comparing apples and oranges in your usual grasping at anything to justify the unjustifiable.

You've revealed your Islamophobia. Now, if you'll admit you have a problem, I'm sure you can find help for it.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #192 - Nov 10^th, 2013 at 10:57am

Grendel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2013 at 10:44pm:

[quote author=Brian_Ross link=1379892909/188#188 date=1383995802]Libel? Since when was asking questions libellous, Beowulf?

It is interesting. It seems OK for Freediver to ask my religion. I saw nary a peep out of you on that little effort yet you jump to Soren's defence immediately. One might question your motives, perhaps? Roll Eyes

When they clearly infer things bwian. When there are no question marks. Then they are not questions

I infer nothing, Beowulf. If a sentence has no question mark, it isn't a question by definition, it's a statement and nothing is inferable from it. It is direct. Is English your second language? Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #193 - Nov 10^th, 2013 at 11:18am

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 10^th, 2013 at 10:53am:

It becomes vilification when it is taken out into the public sphere and promoted as you do, continually, Soren. It is based on distortions, ignorance and as you point out, fear and loathing which is of course prejudice and intolerance. Society has decreed these things are not acceptable in the case of innocent members of a groups such as Muslims. As I keep pointing out, you're an Islamophobe ad you've just admitted it by proclaiming your motive is "fear and loathing". Wink

1. Islam is not a person.
2. Disliking or fearing a religion or an ideology is not vilification and it has not been made illegal.

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Soren

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Re: The futility, of trying to accommodate moslems
Reply #194 - Nov 10^th, 2013 at 11:32am

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 10^th, 2013 at 10:53am:

I don't "fill something with completely new meaning," Soren. The "meaning" is always there, it's just that you, as a bigot don't recognise it. It takes a more reasonable voice, one whom can and does identify "it" as to what it is. If it's promoting the superiority of one "race" over another, it is racism. If it is persecuting a religion, it's bigotry or religious persecution. These are the correct labels, nothing more. If you don't like the labels, then stop making these arguments. Simple, really, isn't it?

1. Islam is not a race so there is no promoting of a race over another when Islam is judged negatively and western democracy positively.
2. Fear and/or dislike f something is not persecuting it. Having a negative opinion of Islam is not religious persecution. We don't have to like it, you know.
3. Even having a negative opinion of you as a person is neither vilification nor persecution. It's a negative opinion.
4. "Stop making these arguments" - now there's the nub of it. You cannot how how I am wrong so you resort to threats and bandying of overinflated words of "bigotry, libel, vilification" and the like.

I asked you what part of Islam you like and would like to accept in your life but you never say.

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