Australian Politics Forum - When, oh when......

Peter Freedman

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When, oh when......
Sep 26^th, 2013 at 7:42am

Is Australia going to emerge from the Dark Ages and embrace some form of proportional representation?

This November represents the 20th anniversary of the introduction of MMP into New Zealand. The sky hasn't fallen in and coalition governments have proved remarkably stable.

What HAS happened is that smaller parties have had a fair go and a much wider range of people have made it into Parliament.

You need to look at just one incidence to see how unfair the current Australian system is.

The Greens won 8% of the vote for just one seat. This represents less than 1% of the number of MPs. These figures just don't stack up, do they?

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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.

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Quantum Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3373	Re: When, oh when...... Reply #1 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole?
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Peter Freedman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5275 Wellington Gender:	Re: When, oh when...... Reply #2 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:23am Quantum wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am: I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole? Australia has many things going for it. The electoral system isn't one of them.
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cods

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #3 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:32am

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quantum wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole?

Australia has many things going for it.

The electoral system isn't one of them.

I agree something needs to change.. but pete you cant compare NZ 4mil.with AUst 22m.and a huge expanse of land to govern..

hey sorry to hear about the Americas Cup what a blow.. Cry

what annoys me more is someone getting in on people second or third choices.....that really pings me off..

I mean most only ever get one kick at goal...but wannabees seem to get more than one chance... Roll Eyes

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cods

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #4 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:33am

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quantum wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole?

Australia has many things going for it.

btw pete it will be even better now the LIBS ARE IN

The electoral system isn't one of them.

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Peter Freedman

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #5 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:40am

cods wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:32am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quantum wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole?

Australia has many things going for it.

The electoral system isn't one of them.

I agree something needs to change.. but pete you cant compare NZ 4mil.with AUst 22m.and a huge expanse of land to govern..

hey sorry to hear about the Americas Cup what a blow.. Cry

what annoys me more is someone getting in on people second or third choices.....that really pings me off..

I mean most only ever get one kick at goal...but wannabees seem to get more than one chance... Roll Eyes

The size of population or of the country itself is immaterial. Countries with far more people than we have successfully use PR.

I'm surprised there seems to be so little interest here in change.

Don't care about the America's Cup. Just rich men playing with their toys.

Half the Oracle crew came from Australia, anyway. I find yacht racing incredibly boring.

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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.

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cods

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #6 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:03am

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:40am:

cods wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:32am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quantum wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole?

Australia has many things going for it.

The electoral system isn't one of them.

I agree something needs to change.. but pete you cant compare NZ 4mil.with AUst 22m.and a huge expanse of land to govern..

hey sorry to hear about the Americas Cup what a blow.. Cry

what annoys me more is someone getting in on people second or third choices.....that really pings me off..

I mean most only ever get one kick at goal...but wannabees seem to get more than one chance... Roll Eyes

The size of population or of the country itself is immaterial. Countries with far more people than we have successfully use PR.

I'm surprised there seems to be so little interest here in change.

Don't care about the America's Cup. Just rich men playing with their toys.

Half the Oracle crew came from Australia, anyway. I find yacht racing incredibly boring.

fair enough..

as for size.. I would rather build a railway or a road in b etween towns.in NZ than OZ..

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adelcrow

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #7 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:09am

cods wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:03am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:40am:

cods wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:32am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quantum wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole?

Australia has many things going for it.

The electoral system isn't one of them.

I agree something needs to change.. but pete you cant compare NZ 4mil.with AUst 22m.and a huge expanse of land to govern..

hey sorry to hear about the Americas Cup what a blow.. Cry

what annoys me more is someone getting in on people second or third choices.....that really pings me off..

I mean most only ever get one kick at goal...but wannabees seem to get more than one chance... Roll Eyes

The size of population or of the country itself is immaterial. Countries with far more people than we have successfully use PR.

I'm surprised there seems to be so little interest here in change.

Don't care about the America's Cup. Just rich men playing with their toys.

Half the Oracle crew came from Australia, anyway. I find yacht racing incredibly boring.

fair enough..

as for size.. I would rather build a railway or a road in b etween towns.in NZ than OZ..

Through or over New Zealands extensive mountain ranges?

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Go the Bunnies

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longweekend58

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #8 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:24am

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 7:42am:

Is Australia going to emerge from the Dark Ages and embrace some form of proportional representation?

This November represents the 20th anniversary of the introduction of MMP into New Zealand. The sky hasn't fallen in and coalition governments have proved remarkably stable.

What HAS happened is that smaller parties have had a fair go and a much wider range of people have made it into Parliament.

You need to look at just one incidence to see how unfair the current Australian system is.

The Greens won 8% of the vote for just one seat. This represents less than 1% of the number of MPs. These figures just don't stack up, do they?

We don't like the Special Olympics form of PR. MMP simply gives a medal to those not deserving one. The greens scored a PATHETIC 8% of the vote. Why should they be given representation for such a pitiful effort? And after the last minority govt I don't think anyone would be looking for a repeat of that experience. AS one of the most stable democracies in the world, changing the system now would be rather silly. "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Peter Freedman

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #9 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:47am

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 7:42am:

Is Australia going to emerge from the Dark Ages and embrace some form of proportional representation?

This November represents the 20th anniversary of the introduction of MMP into New Zealand. The sky hasn't fallen in and coalition governments have proved remarkably stable.

What HAS happened is that smaller parties have had a fair go and a much wider range of people have made it into Parliament.

You need to look at just one incidence to see how unfair the current Australian system is.

The Greens won 8% of the vote for just one seat. This represents less than 1% of the number of MPs. These figures just don't stack up, do they?

We don't like the Special Olympics form of PR. MMP simply gives a medal to those not deserving one. The greens scored a PATHETIC 8% of the vote. Why should they be given representation for such a pitiful effort? And after the last minority govt I don't think anyone would be looking for a repeat of that experience. AS one of the most stable democracies in the world, changing the system now would be rather silly. "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

So 8% of the voters don't matter?

The last minority government made decisions you didn't like. Tough.

If it had been a Liberal minority government you would have loved it, because you inhabit a black and white world. Libs good, Labs bad, that is the extent of your "thinking".

The key point is that a minority government was stable and saw out its term. It worked.

The current system IS broken. It favours the two main parties at the expense of all the others.

Kiwis understood that and changed it. When will Australians do the same?

I am amazed the Greens aren't running with this particular ball. That's what happened over the ditch.

The late Rod Donald led the charge and won despite the opposition of the two main parties and wealthy business interests. NZ has much to thank him for.

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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.

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longweekend58

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #10 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 11:46am

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 7:42am:

Is Australia going to emerge from the Dark Ages and embrace some form of proportional representation?

This November represents the 20th anniversary of the introduction of MMP into New Zealand. The sky hasn't fallen in and coalition governments have proved remarkably stable.

What HAS happened is that smaller parties have had a fair go and a much wider range of people have made it into Parliament.

You need to look at just one incidence to see how unfair the current Australian system is.

The Greens won 8% of the vote for just one seat. This represents less than 1% of the number of MPs. These figures just don't stack up, do they?

We don't like the Special Olympics form of PR. MMP simply gives a medal to those not deserving one. The greens scored a PATHETIC 8% of the vote. Why should they be given representation for such a pitiful effort? And after the last minority govt I don't think anyone would be looking for a repeat of that experience. AS one of the most stable democracies in the world, changing the system now would be rather silly. "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

So 8% of the voters don't matter?

The last minority government made decisions you didn't like. Tough.

If it had been a Liberal minority government you would have loved it, because you inhabit a black and white world. Libs good, Labs bad, that is the extent of your "thinking".

The key point is that a minority government was stable and saw out its term. It worked.

The current system IS broken. It favours the two main parties at the expense of all the others.

Kiwis understood that and changed it. When will Australians do the same?

I am amazed the Greens aren't running with this particular ball. That's what happened over the ditch.

The late Rod Donald led the charge and won despite the opposition of the two main parties and wealthy business interests. NZ has much to thank him for.

not anywhere near as much as the other 92%. This is a society of majority rule. If you cant get to be a majority than you don't get to rule. MMR is just special Olympics methodology.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Peter Freedman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5275 Wellington Gender:	Re: When, oh when...... Reply #11 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 12:19pm No, not as much as the others, I agree. The LNP governs. Did they get a majority of ALL votes cast?
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adelcrow

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #12 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 12:22pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 11:46am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 7:42am:

Is Australia going to emerge from the Dark Ages and embrace some form of proportional representation?

This November represents the 20th anniversary of the introduction of MMP into New Zealand. The sky hasn't fallen in and coalition governments have proved remarkably stable.

What HAS happened is that smaller parties have had a fair go and a much wider range of people have made it into Parliament.

You need to look at just one incidence to see how unfair the current Australian system is.

The Greens won 8% of the vote for just one seat. This represents less than 1% of the number of MPs. These figures just don't stack up, do they?

We don't like the Special Olympics form of PR. MMP simply gives a medal to those not deserving one. The greens scored a PATHETIC 8% of the vote. Why should they be given representation for such a pitiful effort? And after the last minority govt I don't think anyone would be looking for a repeat of that experience. AS one of the most stable democracies in the world, changing the system now would be rather silly. "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

So 8% of the voters don't matter?

The last minority government made decisions you didn't like. Tough.

If it had been a Liberal minority government you would have loved it, because you inhabit a black and white world. Libs good, Labs bad, that is the extent of your "thinking".

The key point is that a minority government was stable and saw out its term. It worked.

The current system IS broken. It favours the two main parties at the expense of all the others.

Kiwis understood that and changed it. When will Australians do the same?

I am amazed the Greens aren't running with this particular ball. That's what happened over the ditch.

The late Rod Donald led the charge and won despite the opposition of the two main parties and wealthy business interests. NZ has much to thank him for.

not anywhere near as much as the other 92%. This is a society of majority rule. If you cant get to be a majority than you don't get to rule. MMR is just special Olympics methodology.

How often have the Libs had the majority of votes on their own in this countries history ?..Once or twice? Grin

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Go the Bunnies

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skippy.

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Re: When, oh when......
Reply #13 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 12:24pm

cods wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:32am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quantum wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

I always wonder why so many New Zealanders live is this backwards country when their own is so progressive and just straight out better. Why leave paradise for this shlthole?

Australia has many things going for it.

The electoral system isn't one of them.

I agree something needs to change.. but pete you cant compare NZ 4mil.with AUst 22m.and a huge expanse of land to govern..

hey sorry to hear about the Americas Cup what a blow.. Cry

what annoys me more is someone getting in on people second or third choices.....that really pings me off..

I mean most only ever get one kick at goal...but wannabees seem to get more than one chance... Roll Eyes

It always makes me piss myself laughing when I read conga line supporters whine about preferential voting. The facts are Labor would have won every election bar one over the past eighty years without preferences and/or coalitions. Yep, I agree Cody's lets make it fairer. Grin

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: When, oh when...... Reply #14 - Sep 26^th, 2013 at 12:24pm Peter Freedman wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 12:19pm: No, not as much as the others, I agree. The LNP governs. Did they get a majority of ALL votes cast? very close. but if you want to use 2PP yes they did. or does preferential voting only apply if it suits you?
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