Australian Politics Forum - Governments, Corporations and the case for anarchy

muso

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Governments, Corporations and the case for anarchy
Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:16am

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 9:58am:

Can you explain WHY your beloved clean, efficient and harmless Global Fossil Fuel industry requires 1.4 trillion dollars EVERY YEAR from the tax payer?

Hey I know we're getting ripped of with petrol prices and utilities, but how is the tax payer giving $1.4 trillion to the fossil fuel industry....??????

I don't know where Chimp is getting his figures from, but anyway.

Tax breaks for diesel to mining and farming, but no tax breaks for equivalent biofuel. That's unfair subsidy. A present from you and me to big mining. That's what happens to our taxes.

http://www.acfonline.org.au/be-informed/climate-change/fossil-fuel-subsidies

Quote:

This equates to $182 per taxpayer every year, and worth a staggering $9.4 billion over the next four years to some of the most profitable companies operating in this country. This is a much greater cost than the carbon price.

Do you think it's a good idea that your taxes go towards that?

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Ajax

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #1 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:27am

Hey our treasonous governments should be held accountable for such things.

I'm totally against tax payer hand outs to big corporations.

Its the system we have today, I guess its Milton Friedman's system which wants all power to be handed over to the corporations.

If I was PM I would boot out the Rio Tintos, Woodside etc etc.

I (the government) would take over mining and oil & gas here in oz, also take back those cash cows we sold to the moguls.

That is our utilities, commonwealth bank, telecommunications, public transport etc etc.

How many billions of dollars could our government make if it owned all these which are naturally Australia's resources and services.

Imagine all that cash flow going to our governments and not a few elite moguls that cash in on our resources.

I would hang all governments from Bob Hawke onwards they sold us out big time.

We could have been one of the luckiest countries on Earth.

At the moment we are just a cash cow for a hand full of elite moguls,.

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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muso

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #2 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:52am

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

If I was PM I would boot out the Rio Tintos, Woodside etc etc.

I (the government) would take over mining and oil & gas here in oz, also take back those cash cows we sold to the moguls.

That is our utilities, commonwealth bank, telecommunications, public transport etc etc.

How many billions of dollars could our government make if it owned all these which are naturally Australia's resources and services.

How many billions could it lose? You want to invest money that Australia doesn't have on mining?

You'd send the country broke. Keating's banana republic would become a reality. Truth be told, you'd probably be assassinated too.

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perceptions_now

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #3 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:56am

muso wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:04am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 9:58am:

Can you explain WHY your beloved clean, efficient and harmless Global Fossil Fuel industry requires 1.4 trillion dollars EVERY YEAR from the tax payer?

Hey I know we're getting ripped of with petrol prices and utilities, but how is the tax payer giving $1.4 trillion to the fossil fuel industry....??????

I don't know where Chimp is getting his figures from, but anyway.

Tax breaks for diesel to mining and farming, but no tax breaks for equivalent biofuel. That's unfair subsidy. A present from you and me to big mining. That's what happens to our taxes.

http://www.acfonline.org.au/be-informed/climate-change/fossil-fuel-subsidies

Quote:

This equates to $182 per taxpayer every year, and worth a staggering $9.4 billion over the next four years to some of the most profitable companies operating in this country. This is a much greater cost than the carbon price.

Do you think it's a good idea that your taxes go towards that?

Could have come from here -

The IMF overall estimate is $1.4 trillion in global indirect fossil fuel subsidies per year. The bulk of direct + indirect subisides goes to petroleum products ($879 billion per year, or 46%), followed by coal ($539 billion, 28%), natural gas ($299 billion, 16%), and electricity ($179 billion, 9%).

http://skepticalscience.com/IMF-fossil-fuel-subsidies-estimate.html
==========================================
The final figure going to direct & indirect subsidies, plus the direct & indirect Cost/benefit equation is probably impossible to accurately quantify,

BUT IT WOULD MOST DEFINITELY BE HUGE!!!

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Ajax

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #4 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:57am

muso wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

If I was PM I would boot out the Rio Tintos, Woodside etc etc.

I (the government) would take over mining and oil & gas here in oz, also take back those cash cows we sold to the moguls.

That is our utilities, commonwealth bank, telecommunications, public transport etc etc.

How many billions of dollars could our government make if it owned all these which are naturally Australia's resources and services.

How many billions could it lose? You want to invest money that Australia doesn't have on mining?

You'd send the country broke. Keating's banana republic would become a reality. Truth be told, you'd probably be assassinated too.

Do you know that our commonwealth bank was making $5 billion dollar profit per annum when it got sold.

Or

That our telecommunications was making $7 billion dollars per annum when it was sold....???

Why sell them......???

What about our utilities.................?????

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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perceptions_now

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #5 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:16pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:57am:

Do you know that our commonwealth bank was making $5 billion dollar profit per annum when it got sold.

Or

That our telecommunications was making $7 billion dollars per annum when it was sold....???

Why sell them......???

What about our utilities.................?????

On an after tax basis, which is THE criteria, I would suggest you are a little heavy on your Profit figures, BUT I understand where you're coming from.

Whilst there may be some valid instances, to sell off Public property, it is also quite likely that in the main the Pollies, from both major party's, have simply taken the easier, more short term fix, because it suits their Political aims/timetable & perhaps because it suits their own interests & those of their "supporters/backers".

It is also "interesting", to view the types of businesses that have been predominantly sold off.

A brief Federal list of privatisations in Australia over the past 20 years can be viewed here -
http://www.markmaldridge.com/GOVERNMENT-SELLING-OUR-FUTURE.html

With the Energy sector, Banks, insurer's & infrastructure being prominent and with various governments often NOT realizing full value, it does beg the questions of why sell & who made what?

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Vuk11

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #6 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:18pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:57am:

muso wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

If I was PM I would boot out the Rio Tintos, Woodside etc etc.

I (the government) would take over mining and oil & gas here in oz, also take back those cash cows we sold to the moguls.

That is our utilities, commonwealth bank, telecommunications, public transport etc etc.

How many billions of dollars could our government make if it owned all these which are naturally Australia's resources and services.

How many billions could it lose? You want to invest money that Australia doesn't have on mining?

You'd send the country broke. Keating's banana republic would become a reality. Truth be told, you'd probably be assassinated too.

Do you know that our commonwealth bank was making $5 billion dollar profit per annum when it got sold.

Or

That our telecommunications was making $7 billion dollars per annum when it was sold....???

Why sell them......???

What about our utilities.................?????

I would say they sold them as a short term fix.
However the real reason to tell these things is because the government is not a business, it never will be and can never handle trying to imitate one. Imo.

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muso

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #7 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:32pm

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

I would say they sold them as a short term fix.
However the real reason to tell these things is because the government is not a business, it never will be and can never handle trying to imitate one. Imo.

I don't have anything to add to that and Perceptions' post, except that for the government to invest in mining would be suicidal.

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Ajax

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #8 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:33pm

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

I would say they sold them as a short term fix.
However the real reason to tell these things is because the government is not a business, it never will be and can never handle trying to imitate one. Imo.

If they cannot run a business how on Earth can they run a country......?????

We were promised competition and lower rates to get us on side with their mentality.

But just think about....for a minute......?????

Where before hand we had one department running electricity, gas etc.

Now we have a whole lot of smaller energy suppliers...!!!!!

Each with their own CEO and upper management etc etc.

How can this be cheaper...................??????

Compared to one department and one CEO.....etc etc.

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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muso

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #9 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:33pm

perceptions_now wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:56am:

The IMF overall estimate is $1.4 trillion in global indirect fossil fuel subsidies per year. The bulk of direct + indirect subisides goes to petroleum products ($879 billion per year, or 46%), followed by coal ($539 billion, 28%), natural gas ($299 billion, 16%), and electricity ($179 billion, 9%).

Yes, I thought it would have to be global.

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Ajax

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #10 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:39pm

perceptions_now wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:16pm:

On an after tax basis, which is THE criteria, I would suggest you are a little heavy on your Profit figures, BUT I understand where you're coming from.

Whilst there may be some valid instances, to sell off Public property, it is also quite likely that in the main the Pollies, from both major party's, have simply taken the easier, more short term fix, because it suits their Political aims/timetable & perhaps because it suits their own interests & those of their "supporters/backers".

It is also "interesting", to view the types of businesses that have been predominantly sold off.

A brief Federal list of privatisations in Australia over the past 20 years can be viewed here
http://www.markmaldridge.com/GOVERNMENT-SELLING-OUR-FUTURE.html

With the Energy sector, Banks, insurer's & infrastructure being prominent and with various governments often NOT realizing full value, it does beg the questions of why sell & who made what?

Not exaggerating the profit margins....at the time that's what they where....!!!

These treasonous politicians should be jailed..........!!!

http://www.markmaldridge.com/GOVERNMENT-SELLING-OUR-FUTURE.html

Pathetic really pathetic..........????

When that bugger knuckle Keating floated our dollar this opened the doors for mutli nationals to waltz in and buy things up for half price.........!!!!!!!!!

They should all be in jail.....................!!!!!!!!

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Vuk11

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #11 - Sep 30^th, 2013 at 8:17pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

I would say they sold them as a short term fix.
However the real reason to tell these things is because the government is not a business, it never will be and can never handle trying to imitate one. Imo.

If they cannot run a business how on Earth can they run a country......?????

We were promised competition and lower rates to get us on side with their mentality.

But just think about....for a minute......?????

Where before hand we had one department running electricity, gas etc.

Now we have a whole lot of smaller energy suppliers...!!!!!

Each with their own CEO and upper management etc etc.

How can this be cheaper...................??????

Compared to one department and one CEO.....etc etc.

Large states run from a central point are always inefficient. The state institutions are hindered by the government in waiting for funding and changes that take so long to be introduced, sometimes coming out when they are already outdated.

As far as multiple energy companies go, in a free society competition is necessary for innovation and price reduction. Though there are reasons why costs go up and I'm willing to bet 100% of the reasons are due to the actions of the governments around the world whether they be due to; war, regulation, intervention or any other state action.

Monopolies are never good for consumers, especially evident with Telstra, not even bothering to upgrade their services or offer a competitive price. Though now you have people trying to compete however they still own most of the lines. It seems especially difficult for a small business to form and be competitive in that environment.

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #12 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 1:08pm

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 8:17pm:

Large states run from a central point are always inefficient.

Says who Milton Freidmann....????

Quote:

The state institutions are hindered by the government in waiting for funding and changes that take so long to be introduced, sometimes coming out when they are already outdated.

I've lived under both government run and privately owned, my 2 cents I prefer government owned, at the very least the money stays in our country, rather than going to a hand full of elite moguls.

Quote:

As far as multiple energy companies go, in a free society competition is necessary for innovation and price reduction.

Yes I agree, so by selling our commonwealth bank which would have passed RBA interest cuts verbatim, forcing the other leaches to comply.

Now we have banks saying they cant afford to pass on the whole interest cut, where is the competition.

Ditto with all other government run departments.

The bench marks have been privatised...!!

Now we're at the mercy of corporations....!!!

Quote:

Though there are reasons why costs go up and I'm willing to bet 100% of the reasons are due to the actions of the governments around the world whether they be due to; war, regulation, intervention or any other state action.

Like I said now we have many energy providers each with their own CEO and upper management, how can this be cheaper....????

Quote:

Monopolies are never good for consumers,

And that is exactly what the ideologies of Milton Freidmann have given us today, where corporations have all the power.

Look at petrol prices, one day they go up 10 or 15 cents, within a few days they drop down again.....?????

The ideologies of Milton Freidmann are just as bad as the ideologies of Carl Marx, only we're conditioned to think otherwise.

If you think in terms of democracy todays situation is a bunch of bad apples, not one of them good.

Quote:

especially evident with Telstra, not even bothering to upgrade their services or offer a competitive price.

Fair enough but their are bigger fish to fry, for example the effects of the carbon tax on our standard of living.

Its only going to get worse.........?????

Quote:

Though now you have people trying to compete however they still own most of the lines. It seems especially difficult for a small business to form and be competitive in that environment.

Do you know what coles and wolliies are doing to our farmers......????

What about bankers..???... did you watch four corners last night......????

Where is the democracy in Australia...???

The constitution treats all citizens the same....????

I think Australia is no longer a democracy maybe an oligarchy full of corporatism....!!!!

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Vuk11

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #13 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 1:41pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 1:08pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 8:17pm:

Large states run from a central point are always inefficient.

Says who Milton Freidmann....????

Quote:

The state institutions are hindered by the government in waiting for funding and changes that take so long to be introduced, sometimes coming out when they are already outdated.

I've lived under both government run and privately owned, my 2 cents I prefer government owned, at the very least the money stays in our country, rather than going to a hand full of elite moguls.

Quote:

As far as multiple energy companies go, in a free society competition is necessary for innovation and price reduction.

Yes I agree, so by selling our commonwealth bank which would have passed RBA interest cuts verbatim, forcing the other leaches to comply.

Now we have banks saying they cant afford to pass on the whole interest cut, where is the competition.

Ditto with all other government run departments.

The bench marks have been privatised...!!

Now we're at the mercy of corporations....!!!

Quote:

Though there are reasons why costs go up and I'm willing to bet 100% of the reasons are due to the actions of the governments around the world whether they be due to; war, regulation, intervention or any other state action.

Like I said now we have many energy providers each with their own CEO and upper management, how can this be cheaper....????

Quote:

Monopolies are never good for consumers,

And that is exactly what the ideologies of Milton Freidmann have given us today, where corporations have all the power.

Look at petrol prices, one day they go up 10 or 15 cents, within a few days they drop down again.....?????

The ideologies of Milton Freidmann are just as bad as the ideologies of Carl Marx, only we're conditioned to think otherwise.

If you think in terms of democracy todays situation is a bunch of bad apples, not one of them good.

Quote:

especially evident with Telstra, not even bothering to upgrade their services or offer a competitive price.

Fair enough but their are bigger fish to fry, for example the effects of the carbon tax on our standard of living.

Its only going to get worse.........?????

Quote:

Though now you have people trying to compete however they still own most of the lines. It seems especially difficult for a small business to form and be competitive in that environment.

Do you know what coles and wolliies are doing to our farmers......????

What about bankers..???... did you watch four corners last night......????

Where is the democracy in Australia...???

The constitution treats all citizens the same....????

I think Australia is no longer a democracy maybe an oligarchy full of corporatism....!!!!

AFAIK Milton didn't advocate power to corporations. This I think is a misconception.
He advocated a free market, deregulation and almost nonexistent government intervention.

The state gives corporations their power and the state keeps small business from competing. Limited liability allows them to be reckless without repercussion and there are so many barriers stopping people from undercutting corporations. There is a reason all the big business lobbyists in the US/Aus/Europe advocate a larger nanny state.

Have you by any chance heard of Aussie farmers direct? A pretty great idea of home delivered groceries direct from farmers. I'm sure they're having issues with audits, licensing and many other government mandated barriers.

I agree though corporations are big issues for farmers and small business, but believe it or not the state is what gives them this power. In what way did Friedman advocate corporations? Imo he was more for small business, or business in general.

Also yes:
- Carbon tax is a big issue I agree
- The bankers are the ones being bailed out, when they are the cause of our GFC issues I agree it's BS
- It is a corporate Oligarchy of lobbyists and that's the issue with the state. People have given a group of humans the monopoly of force and violent coercion on a populace, in the hopes of "the right people" getting in power and being incorruptible. Obviously by the way the western world has gone this is a failed experiment.

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Ajax

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #14 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 2:08pm

Vuk11 wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 1:41pm:

AFAIK Milton didn't advocate power to corporations. This I think is a misconception.
He advocated a free market, deregulation and almost nonexistent government intervention.

Isn't that what we have today.................??????

Quote:

The state gives corporations their power and the state keeps small business from competing.

The problem is the state has given corporations so much power they can no longer control them...?????

Quote:

Limited liability allows them to be reckless without repercussion and there are so many barriers stopping people from undercutting corporations.

Reckless is an underestimate...!!!

When have people EVER undercut corporations.....?????

Quote:

There is a reason all the big business lobbyists in the US/Aus/Europe advocate a larger nanny state.

Which parts of the nanny state are you refering to...??

Health...education......infrastructure....housing.....????

Quote:

Have you by any chance heard of Aussie farmers direct? A pretty great idea of home delivered groceries direct from farmers. I'm sure they're having issues with audits, licensing and many other government mandated barriers

.

Haven't heard of that one...??

Is it available in big cities....???

Quote:

I agree though corporations are big issues for farmers and small business, but believe it or not the state is what gives them this power.

like I said they have been given so much power the state can no longer control them.

Quote:

In what way did Friedman advocate corporations? Imo he was more for small business, or business in general.

You should do your homework.....????

Start here its ugly but its the truth......????

The Shock Doctrine

Quote:

Also yes:
- Carbon tax is a big issue I agree

Its only to get bigger, when the ETS starts heading up and up past the $30/tonne mark.

Greenies are calling for something like $80/tonne.

That means times all your energy bills by 2.5.

Quote:

- The bankers are the ones being bailed out, when they are the cause of our GFC issues I agree it's BS

Why are they being bailed out they are a business that went broke, have a look at what Iceland did

Matt Damon Inside job
http://archive.org/details/cpb20120505a

Quote:

- It is a corporate Oligarchy of lobbyists and that's the issue with the state. People have given a group of humans the monopoly of force and violent coercion on a populace, in the hopes of "the right people" getting in power and being incorruptible. Obviously by the way the western world has gone this is a failed experiment.

Nothing is ever by chance when it comes to human nature.

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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