Australian Politics Forum - Governments, Corporations and the case for anarchy

Grey

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #15 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 2:20pm

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However the real reason to sell these things is because the government is not a business, it never will be and can never handle trying to imitate one. Imo.

Government is responsible for national infrastructure. People who think like you would have the armed forces run as a business. It's in the national interest that telecommunications, education, roads, power and water supplies, medicare, timber and mining are all owned by the people and run with optimum efficiency.

There's really no need for taxes as such, just levies for medicare etc and a bit of cross pollenating, money from mining can go to education for instance.

Business is supposed to make as much profit for its owners as possible. That's not an appropriate model for all enterprises, a shoddy telecom loses money for every other business; the same applies to all infrastructural institutions.

A government that does nothing but bicker amongst its factions and involve the country in fights overseas isn't a government; it's a Royal family.

Ajax is on the money.

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Grey

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #16 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 2:35pm

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Muso - You'd send the country broke. Keating's banana republic would become a reality. Truth be told, you'd probably be assassinated too.

Nobody ever got assasinated for nationalising an industry as far as i know. In anycase that's a game two for two or more players. How could anybody go broke selling ores to China? Or running a bank or...

The bottom line is you'd employ the same management team and if the CEO doesn't perform you'd hire another. Decisions a cabinet could make just as well as gina rheinhardt.

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Vuk11

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #17 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 3:24pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 2:08pm:

Isn't that what we have today.................??????

Today we have governments bailing out banks and failed business', regulating everything and not to mention the mass amounts of licensing and auditing we have, even more so than the US.

Quote:

The problem is the state has given corporations so much power they can no longer control them...?????

It's at the point I think, where the corporations and especially the bankers control the government, they put these people in power and they lobby for what serves them. You will never be able to elect the right people as corporations like you say can no longer be controlled. If there is a position of power capable of being corrupted and manipulated it will be.

Quote:

Which parts of the nanny state are you refering to...??

Health...education......infrastructure....housing.....????

.
My view is of <--less state or more state -->, whenever you get more state you get less economic and personal freedom.

Quote:

Haven't heard of that one...??

Is it available in big cities....???

They said they're available in quite a few places except Tasmania?
I'm in the Gold Coast and I know people who use them in Sydney and Brisbane.
Quote:

You should do your homework.....????

Start here its ugly but its the truth......????

I'm currently reading his books and I've watched all of his speeches, so I'll take a look at that video cheers.

Quote:

Why are they being bailed out they are a business that went broke, have a look at what Iceland did

I love what Iceland did, no business imo should be bailed out. Business that fail must be removed and make way for better run more efficient business'. It also comes down to the broken window fallacy, the workers, capital and investments could be used for something else which might be more important than say a failing car industry.

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Vuk11

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #18 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 3:39pm

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Government is responsible for national infrastructure. People who think like you would have the armed forces run as a business. It's in the national interest that telecommunications, education, roads, power and water supplies, medicare, timber and mining are all owned by the people and run with optimum efficiency.

On the road to Anarchy you have small government/Minarchism. The debate over Minarchy/Anarchy in our view is one for the next generation. Our focus is on centralized state vs no centralized state or less centralized state.

Minarchists still believe having state run; police, courts and defense. The whole idea of having no state is that the centralized state uses violent coercion to enforce it's views on how you should live and spend your money on how it thinks it could be spent. What if instead of paying those taxes a community can voluntarily pool funds for something they need? There is no prerequisite that you need a central monopoly of power to steal in order to get certain things done in certain areas.

There is nothing stopping a community, collection of communities or business interest from doing any of the above. (telecommunications, education, roads, power and water supplies, medicare,)

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change Reply #19 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 5:06pm Well it looks as if government in the US is pretty small at the moment.
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Grey

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #20 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 6:33pm

Vuk11 wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 3:39pm:

Quote:

Government is responsible for national infrastructure. People who think like you would have the armed forces run as a business. It's in the national interest that telecommunications, education, roads, power and water supplies, medicare, timber and mining are all owned by the people and run with optimum efficiency.

On the road to Anarchy you have small government/Minarchism. The debate over Minarchy/Anarchy in our view is one for the next generation. Our focus is on centralized state vs no centralized state or less centralized state.

Minarchists still believe having state run; police, courts and defense. The whole idea of having no state is that the centralized state uses violent coercion to enforce it's views on how you should live and spend your money on how it thinks it could be spent. What if instead of paying those taxes a community can voluntarily pool funds for something they need? There is no prerequisite that you need a central monopoly of power to steal in order to get certain things done in certain areas.

There is nothing stopping a community, collection of communities or business interest from doing any of the above. (telecommunications, education, roads, power and water supplies, medicare,)

If anybody wants to discuss Anarchism there's a thread here.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1364174580

Personally I think Anarchism has to start as a revolt against the gangsters who run all aspects of our lives right now. In particular the political gangs. It has to start at a community level and has to 'take' control of local government.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #21 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 7:12pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 2:08pm:

[quote author=Vuk11 link=1380242167/71#71 date=1380598900]

Greenies are calling for something like $80/tonne.

That means times all your energy bills by 2.5.

Spreading deception again I see Mr Ajax.

The Carbon tax applies at the point of power generation, not at the points of distribution and retail of power.

An $80/tonne Carbon price would increase the cost of power at the power plant from about its current level of 4.5 cents per kWhr to about 10 cents per kWhr.

In other words the average household or business would see an increase of about 6 cents per kWhr.

Incidentally, Norway has a carbon price of about $140 per tonne of carbon. They also have an 80% tax on all oil extracted off shore - money which is placed in a National Fund for various critical projects etc. There is almost 600 billion in that fund Mr Ajax. Seems like you want lots of tax cake but don't want anybody to pay any tax.

So Mr Ajax, you are exposed once again for what you are - a AGW denialist web site spinster parrot

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« Last Edit: Oct 1^st, 2013 at 7:26pm by Chimp_Logic »

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #22 - Oct 1^st, 2013 at 9:05pm

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 8:17pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

I would say they sold them as a short term fix.
However the real reason to tell these things is because the government is not a business, it never will be and can never handle trying to imitate one. Imo.

If they cannot run a business how on Earth can they run a country......?????

We were promised competition and lower rates to get us on side with their mentality.

But just think about....for a minute......?????

Where before hand we had one department running electricity, gas etc.

Now we have a whole lot of smaller energy suppliers...!!!!!

Each with their own CEO and upper management etc etc.

How can this be cheaper...................??????

Compared to one department and one CEO.....etc etc.

Large states run from a central point are always inefficient. The state institutions are hindered by the government in waiting for funding and changes that take so long to be introduced, sometimes coming out when they are already outdated.

As far as multiple energy companies go, in a free society competition is necessary for innovation and price reduction. Though there are reasons why costs go up and I'm willing to bet 100% of the reasons are due to the actions of the governments around the world whether they be due to; war, regulation, intervention or any other state action.

Monopolies are never good for consumers, especially evident with Telstra, not even bothering to upgrade their services or offer a competitive price. Though now you have people trying to compete however they still own most of the lines. It seems especially difficult for a small business to form and be competitive in that environment.

What utter sheeplike cr&p. Straight out of the Milton Freedman propaganda book. This kind of propaganda only really started in the 90s when governments all over the world were pressured by the business elite to sell off the peoples assets to them (the business elite) for a pittance. It was nothing short of theft and to justify it they mounted a huge propaganda campaign based on the lie that governments can't run businesses. This is despite the fact that the businesses they wanted to get their hands on were incredibly profitable. Qantas (not a monopoly), Commonwealth bank (not a monopoly), Telstra, Australia post (not a monopoly when it was sold), Belconnan mall in Canberra sold by Hawks to his mate Lowy of Westfields (incredibly profitable _ that's why they wanted them so badly. The other propaganda lie they pedaled was that by selling to private enterprise the former government businesses would deliver cheaper and more efficient services. If you think Telstra, delivers cheaper phone services you need your head read. Same with the commonwealth bank, the bank of NSW, the GIO (remember that one "Govt Insurance Office") More efficient service? Please!!!!! Also don't forget that sometimes governments run business because they deliver a service that private enterprise won't venture into. Eg Government railways. And only governments will say, we will deliver this service at a loss because its so important for everyone to have access to that service, cheaply and to a high standard. Government hospitals and government schools have been running for centuries.

And lastly, please do some research on the net on the Snowy Mountains scheme. Totally government initiated, government funded, and government run. Public servants right down to the CEO. Not only was this massive undertaking delivered on time and under budget it was and still is highly profitable and for its day the government delivered one of the great wonders of the world. And how often were governments doing this successfully and under budget. The harbour bridge, the opera house. In America under the New Deal. The Hoover Dam. What's the deal on NASA, anyone know. They seem to contract a lot of stuff out but the program itself is run by government I believe. A government run enterprise put the first man on the moon. So you know what you can do with you bullsh!t propaganda.

So I tell you what Mr Vuk sonny, before you resume spreading you baaarrrr, baaaaarrrr, baaaarrrr propaganda do a bit of research and your own thinking instead of repeating this tripe.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #23 - Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 7:31am

Ajax I think your justified distaste for politicians and our political system has clouded your judgment about global warming. Sure we've been lied to many times but scientists first started warning us about this in the 60s (when there was still a bit of innocence left in our politicians and political system) and the scientific community has only gradually come to relative consensus on the issue after many decades. Sure the could be wrong but frankly anyone who would be convinced by your unqualified nonsensical rants over the word of climate scientists would have to be a complete fool. It would be like accepting the view of a first aid assistant over a surgeon on whether to perform brain surgery. And for you to think that you can second guess the climate scientists shows a decided lack of basic judgment and total lack of any adult sense of responsibility. In view of what's at stake even if I, the first aid assistant, had misgivings about the surgeons advice I would never try and convince the patient to ignore it because I'm a 1000 times more likely to be wrong then he is. Grow up. Have a rethink about this subject because your putting a lot of lives in jeopardy on a call your not qualified to make.

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muso

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Re: Governments, Corporations and the case for anarchy
Reply #24 - Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 7:47am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 7:31am:

Sure the could be wrong but frankly anyone who would be convinced by your unqualified nonsensical rants over the word of climate scientists would have to be a complete fool. It would be like accepting the view of a first aid assistant over a surgeon on whether to perform brain surgery. And for you to think that you can second guess the climate scientists shows a decided lack of basic judgment and total lack of any adult sense of responsibility. In view of what's at stake even if I, the first aid assistant, had misgivings about the surgeons advice I would never try and convince the patient to ignore it because I'm a 1000 times more likely to be wrong then he is. Grow up. Have a rethink about this subject because your putting a lot of lives in jeopardy on a call your not qualified to make.

Well to use the terminology, you might also say that it's very likely that the surgeon could give better advice than the first aid assistant, with a confidence level of >90%.

Then the denialists would come up with all kinds of studies showing how many patients die on the operating table... in Equatorial Guniea of course. We have to make the cherry picking most effective. Then it would be:

"Ooh err, so only 90% certain? Well I think I'll choose that First Aid assistant to perform my brain surgery, "

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« Last Edit: Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 7:56am by muso »

scary-surgeon-holding-saw-_-c_16-pixmac-picture-88097638.jpg (18 KB | 21 )

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Vuk11

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #25 - Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 2:02pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 9:05pm:

What utter sheeplike cr&p. Straight out of the Milton Freedman propaganda book.

Quote:

So I tell you what Mr Vuk sonny, before you resume spreading you baaarrrr, baaaaarrrr, baaaarrrr propaganda do a bit of research and your own thinking instead of repeating this tripe.

I love the assumptions.
You really have it out for some people don't you?
Never really engaging in logical discourse besides the example you post above. Thank you for the examples of government run institutions. I will look forward to your input about why the state is necessary and moral in another thread, it will be interesting.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Governments, Corporations and the case for anarchy Reply #26 - Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 3:25pm In this day and age, nobody in their right mind is talking about pegging the dollar again and going back to pre 1983 - the pre-float era. I'm amazed that anybody still thinks in these terms.
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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #27 - Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 7:27pm

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:57am:

muso wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Ajax wrote on Sep 30^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

If I was PM I would boot out the Rio Tintos, Woodside etc etc.

I (the government) would take over mining and oil & gas here in oz, also take back those cash cows we sold to the moguls.

That is our utilities, commonwealth bank, telecommunications, public transport etc etc.

How many billions of dollars could our government make if it owned all these which are naturally Australia's resources and services.

How many billions could it lose? You want to invest money that Australia doesn't have on mining?

You'd send the country broke. Keating's banana republic would become a reality. Truth be told, you'd probably be assassinated too.

Do you know that our commonwealth bank was making $5 billion dollar profit per annum when it got sold.

Or

That our telecommunications was making $7 billion dollars per annum when it was sold....???

Why sell them......???

What about our utilities.................?????

I would say they sold them as a short term fix.
However the real reason to tell these things is because the government is not a business, it never will be and can never handle trying to imitate one. Imo.

Government is much more important than business!

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Why I don’t believe in Catastrophic Climate Change
Reply #28 - Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm

Grey wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 6:33pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Oct 1^st, 2013 at 3:39pm:

Quote:

Government is responsible for national infrastructure. People who think like you would have the armed forces run as a business. It's in the national interest that telecommunications, education, roads, power and water supplies, medicare, timber and mining are all owned by the people and run with optimum efficiency.

On the road to Anarchy you have small government/Minarchism. The debate over Minarchy/Anarchy in our view is one for the next generation. Our focus is on centralized state vs no centralized state or less centralized state.

Minarchists still believe having state run; police, courts and defense. The whole idea of having no state is that the centralized state uses violent coercion to enforce it's views on how you should live and spend your money on how it thinks it could be spent. What if instead of paying those taxes a community can voluntarily pool funds for something they need? There is no prerequisite that you need a central monopoly of power to steal in order to get certain things done in certain areas.

There is nothing stopping a community, collection of communities or business interest from doing any of the above. (telecommunications, education, roads, power and water supplies, medicare,)

If anybody wants to discuss Anarchism there's a thread here.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1364174580

Personally I think Anarchism has to start as a revolt against the gangsters who run all aspects of our lives right now. In particular the political gangs. It has to start at a community level and has to 'take' control of local government.

Anarchy starts with you!

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: Governments, Corporations and the case for anarchy Reply #29 - Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 7:33pm Indeed, anarchy is you: to try and co-opt others would be trying to co-opt others!
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