Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 8
Send Topic Print
AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation (Read 8681 times)
MOTR
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6646
AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Oct 14th, 2013 at 4:26am
 
Why climate change contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation

Posted on 11 October 2013 by gpwayne


Quote:
For a while now, I’ve considered climate change denial to be akin to superstition, which the Oxford Dictionaries site defines as “a widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences.” I mention this because when challenged, contrarians often claim that the climate changes we are witnessing are not man-made, but products of ‘natural variability’.  In this context, I find that ‘natural variability’ appears to be a synonym for ‘supernatural influence’.

Why? Because they can’t explain it. Not just that: many seem to believe they are not obliged to do so, which is suspiciously convenient, and all too reminiscent of those who would claim they don’t need to ‘explain’ God. In this, they share a view once expressed in a Guardian forum which, to this day, remains one of my favourite denialist non-sequiturs. When challenged, a poster calling himself Hamlet 4 insisted “I don’t need to prove climate change is caused by natural variability. It just is.”

*****

Recently in the Guardian, Dana Nuccitelli wrote an interesting article entitled Magical climate contrarian thinking debunked by real science. The first sentence creates the context:

“One of the most important concepts to understand when trying to grasp how the Earth’s climate works, is that every climate change must have a physical cause”.

He follows that up with the premise on which his argument is based:

“It’s not sufficient to say global warming is the result of “a natural cycle” – which cycle is causing the change? For example, is it due to the Earth’s orbital cycles around the Sun, which operate very slowly over periods of thousands of years? Is it changes in solar activity, which has on average remained flat and even declined slightly over the past 60 years? Is it ocean cycles, which shift heat between the oceans and air, and don’t cause the Earth to accumulate more heat?”

Dana is taking issue with a specific paper, authored by Syun-Ichi Akasofu, a retired geophysicist and former director of the International Arctic Research Center at the University of Alaska-Fairbanks:

“[Akasofu] claimed that the current global warming is merely a result of the planet “recovering” from the Little Ice Age – a cool period (the cooling mostly isolated in Europe) that lasted between the years of about 1550 and 1850. Problem – Akasofu didn’t identify any physical cause for this supposed ‘recovery.’”

I’ve often remarked that climate change contrarians have no science. A common retort is that since we ‘warmists’ are making the claims, it is us that need to produce the evidence to support it. On the face of it, this seems fair enough – and indeed we have produced the evidence, not that contrarians are prepared to acknowledge any of it. (No surprise there). However, as with calls for probity, accuracy and transparency, one might imagine that such virtues, attributes or burdens of proof would be applicable to us all, not just scientists, advocates or journalists. Evidently, one would be wrong.

Clearly, the pseudo-sceptics do not care to understand that when they make claims, the same rules ought to apply. Describing the changes we have already witnessed as ‘natural variability’ without explaining the forcing or its origin is exactly the superstitious ‘magical thinking’ that Dana discusses, which explains absolutely nothing and has as much credibility in scientific terms as claiming that God did it.

*****

Since theological explanations are no longer popular, contrarians need some kind of new, unknowable force to conveniently explain climate change; the new superstition of ’natural variability’. They don’t seem to understand that, in the scientific context in which these claims are usually made, this is yet another hypothesis, and requires exactly the same standard of scientific examination they demand of existing climate science.
Back to top
 

Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
IP Logged
 
MOTR
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6646
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #1 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 4:28am
 
Quote:
Natural variability is not an explanation of cause, but the observation of a pattern of effect. It is not a mechanism, nor is it a description or function. Natural variability is an attribution, a generalisation, a vague but convenient catch-all. All phenomena are 'natural' and they vary a lot. Citing 'natural variation' as an explanation, explains nothing. The missing component in this 'explanation' is how and why ‘natural variability’ takes place at all - and to discover this, we must turn to science.

To bring about a ‘natural’ change still requires an energy input or output. Climate change contrarians cannot produce any science that attests to energy changes that might cause this recent ’natural variability’ any more than creationists can produce science (or evidence) to support their claim that 'it was God what done it'. This should not be surprising, because climate change denial is a belief system, founded not on science and evidence, but something akin to a religion, or superstition.

The problem with the claim that all the climate changes we are already witnessing are within the bounds of natural variability is that those making the claim cannot identify the forcing – the change in energy levels – required to increase the global temperatures rapidly over three decades, to melt glaciers, to warm oceans, to change seasonal periodicity, to expand deserts, to cause extreme weather, change precipitation patterns, to decrease Arctic ice volume or increase Antarctic sea ice extent.

All these and many more changes in our environment require energy, and what climate change contrarians cannot produce is even a convincing alternative hypothesis to explain where this energy is coming from, let alone produce empirical evidence for it. Yet this is their ‘theory’, their alleged explanation for what is happening to the climate. I think they owe us more than some vague, hand-waving generalisation. They owe us a scientific explanation of what drives this ‘natural variability’, because without it, they are asking us to dismiss a cohesive, consistent, consilient scientific theory in favour of nothing but untestable, unprovable, unfalsifiable superstition. They might as well be asking us to dump science in favour of magic – and then again, perhaps that’s exactly what they are doing.

*****

When it comes to credibility, a source of information should surely maintain some kind of balance. That isn’t to say that an editorial policy can’t be applied – the Guardian is still (barely) a left-wing media outlet but that doesn’t mean its output is mere propaganda, even though its detractors might conveniently characterise it as such.

This point is particularly salient when considering the main contrarian websites. These sites cannot possibly be considered sceptical, for a simple reason; they find fault in all climate science, not just some of it.

Think about it: thousands of papers published over the last 50 years. I just wrote about the Charney report – a remarkably prescient bit of work dating from 1979 – but the audit trail goes a long way further back than that, all the way back to Fourier, Tyndall, and Arrhenius with his greenhouse theory, published in 1896. (Arrhenius received the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1903 by the way, and in 1905 became Director of the Nobel Institute, where he remained until his death).

Surely I can’t be alone in thinking that a site calling itself ‘sceptical’ would find some papers to be accurate, some to be debatable, and some to be in error. That would be the logical assumption in regard of any statistical breakdown of technical materials, particularly when the material originates from scientists so geographically and culturally diverse.

The probability that all climate science is wrong (or right, for that matter) is, statistically speaking, zero. Indeed, Skeptical Science, while lauding many papers for their insight, had no compunction in finding fault with a recent paper about an alleged methane bubble. (A fine demonstration of true scepticism, the lack of an agenda – and the pernicious corruption of proper spelling by the colonies. Have they no respect?).

The unfortunate result of finding fault in everything is that one can no longer be seen to persuade, but to hector and harass, to denigrate and deny. Without a counter-argument, all that’s left is propaganda. Persuasion requires a counter-position at least as credible as the one argued against; propaganda requires only a credulous audience willing to believe something that confirms a view they already hold. When the subject is climate science, it isn’t a valid argument to dismiss one theory without being able to propose an alternative. As I’ve said before, to knock down an edifice, all that’s required is brute strength and a sledgehammer. Constructing a new edifice out of the rubble requires more; intelligence, architecture, planning, skills and crafts, design and construction. Contrarians certainly know how to wield the hammer, but there’s not much evidence of anything constructive in their position.
Back to top
 

Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
IP Logged
 
MOTR
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6646
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #2 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 4:30am
 
Quote:
Why do I claim that criticism without a counter-theory is invalid? For the same reason Dana eschews ‘magical thinking’. At the heart of the climate change debate there is a question being asked, and to answer it requires science. (The Oxford Dictionary on-line defines science as “the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment”).

We study the physical and natural world for many reasons, but chief among them must surely be the desire to understand changes in the world around us that may affect us for better or worse. So we find ourselves contemplating an important question; the climate is changing – why is that?

If contrarians want to argue their case, it is not sufficient to be dismissive of climate science, any more than it is appropriate to pitch opinion against theory. There is no material explanation for climate change proposed by deniers, except the magical thinking of ‘natural variation’. The only valid way to improve science is through better science, and better science is not achieved by taking a sledgehammer to the existing canon, any more than it could be improved by burning books.

We have a really important question to answer: why is the climate changing? This question cannot be answered through rhetoric or debate. It is the stuff of science, and until those who take issue with anthropogenic climate change can produce an alternative theory of equal merit, they must rely entirely on hyperbole, demagoguery, personal attacks, misrepresentation, and bad science to promote their invidious case.

I’m open to persuasion, but only by one means; science. ‘Natural variation’ doesn’t explain anything. It doesn’t answer the fundamental question, which cannot be put back in the Pandora’s box it came from. We need an answer, and ‘natural variability’ isn’t it. What contrarians cannot do is persuade us that such a pressing question does not require an urgent answer.

All physical change involves changes in energy states. Until climate change contrarians can come up with a plausible, testable alternative explanation as to where this energy is coming from and why it is changing in distribution and quantity, they cannot present an argument that will persuade by force of logic. Appealing to pseudo-superstitions like ‘natural variation’ is an appeal to a mob mentality. It depends on predisposition, a certain ignorance, a credulous audience and a lack of sceptical enquiry. What it will never do is stop the ice melting, nor explain why it is.


http://www.skepticalscience.com/scientific-explanation-climate-change-contrarian...
Back to top
 

Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
IP Logged
 
gizmo_2655
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #3 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 7:01am
 
What would be the point??
It's like arguing evolution with a creationist, they won't accept the (scientific) explanations anyway.

Einstein said best, " Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results"
Back to top
 

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
IP Logged
 
greggerypeccary
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 139596
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #4 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 7:51am
 
Dana Nuccitelli, hey?

"First and only warning - I'm Blocking anyone who continues with the 'Dana is funded by Big Oil' BS. Cut the crap."

https://twitter.com/dana1981/status/360422898902642690

What an interesting little alarmist blogger he is.

He's one of the 97% consensus clowns:

http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/06/05/warmist-dana-nuccitelli-chokes-on-his-own...

Too funny   Grin




Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ajax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


CO2 has never controlled
temperature on Earth

Posts: 10982
Australia
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #5 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:08am
 
Quote:
For a while now, I’ve considered climate change denial to be akin to superstition, which the Oxford Dictionaries site defines as “a widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences.” I mention this because when challenged, contrarians often claim that the climate changes we are witnessing are not man-made, but products of ‘natural variability’.  In this context, I find that ‘natural variability’ appears to be a synonym for ‘supernatural influence’.


The very first paragraph of these writings describes the attitude this person has to sceptics.

The funny thing is that he talks as though the science is settled and there is nothing left to argue about.

Science is about scrutiny, today there are still scientists who scrutinise Newton's and Einstein's work.

Not that anthropogenic global warming has ever been a settled science since MOST of the IPCC's predictions have been way of the mark or just down right lies.

In fact so much of their predictions have been off the IPCC is now under pressure to explain why....????
Back to top
 

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
IP Logged
 
greggerypeccary
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 139596
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #6 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:23am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:08am:
The funny thing is that he talks as though the science is settled and there is nothing left to argue about.



His alarmist colleague - Dana Nuccitelli- claims "Now that the science is settled that humans are causing global warming ... "

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/06/05/5471547/climate-debate-is-settled-carbon.html

Another one who thinks that AGW is "an undeniable fact of nature".




Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Doctor Jolly
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3808
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #7 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:27am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:08am:
Quote:
For a while now, I’ve considered climate change denial to be akin to superstition, which the Oxford Dictionaries site defines as “a widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences.” I mention this because when challenged, contrarians often claim that the climate changes we are witnessing are not man-made, but products of ‘natural variability’.  In this context, I find that ‘natural variability’ appears to be a synonym for ‘supernatural influence’.


The very first paragraph of these writings describes the attitude this person has to sceptics.

The funny thing is that he talks as though the science is settled and there is nothing left to argue about.

Science is about scrutiny, today there are still scientists who scrutinise Newton's and Einstein's work.

Not that anthropogenic global warming has ever been a settled science since MOST of the IPCC's predictions have been way of the mark or just down right lies.

In fact so much of their predictions have been off the IPCC is now under pressure to explain why....????


Which predictions are wrong, and name some scientists who are scrutinising Newtons and Einsteins work at a macro level ?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ajax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


CO2 has never controlled
temperature on Earth

Posts: 10982
Australia
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #8 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:59am
 
Doctor Jolly wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:27am:
Which predictions are wrong, and name some scientists who are scrutinising Newtons and Einsteins work at a macro level ?


The missing heat of the last 15 years in somewhere in the oceans.

There was no medieval warm period or mini ice age.

All glaciers would be gone by 2035.

All the ice in the arctic would be gone by 2013.

There is a hot spot in the tropopause.

Co2 & temperature correlate.

Mosquitos and malaria would spread because of AGW.

All natural disasters are caused from anthropogenic global warming.

Ocean acidity of 0.3 pH units over the next 90 years will be catastrophic when ocean acidity changes much more than this on a daily bases.

The shonkey hockey stick which no one is allowed to analyse..............climate gate......????

Sea levels are rising uncontrollably...!!!!!

The IPCC's 1990 prediction of unequivocal warming of 0.2 degrees celcius per decade when for the last 15 years we have only had 0.05 degrees celcius per decade.

research on Newton's work
http://crosscut.com/2011/08/02/hanford/21132/Was-Newton-wrong-about-gravity/

Research on Einstein's work
http://phys.org/news193581095.html

Quote:
"We physicists, we're skeptical of every theory," explains physicist Paul Boynton of the University of Washington.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2013 at 10:24am by Ajax »  

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
IP Logged
 
Doctor Jolly
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3808
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #9 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 10:27am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:59am:
Doctor Jolly wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:27am:
Which predictions are wrong, and name some scientists who are scrutinising Newtons and Einsteins work at a macro level ?


The missing heat of the last 15 years in somewhere in the oceans.

There was no medieval warm period or mini ice age.



Can you give me IPCC links to these, because they sound like you've made them up:
Quote:
All glaciers would be gone by 2035.

All the ice in the arctic would be gone by 2013.

All natural disasters are caused from anthropogenic global warming.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Vuk11
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1797
QLD
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #10 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 11:21am
 
If the IPCC makes a claim, then is found wanting, the burden of proof for their claims still lies with them. It isn't like debating creationism, it's the opposite. Atheism is the null-hypothesis, exactly like climate skepticism. Sure you can find people who offer their own explanations, I'm trying to look for an article where some skeptics actually predicted the current temperatures with their own model, but can't remember where I saw it. Apart from that the null-hypothesis does not have the burden of proof, they can deconstruct an argument however and offer up their own ideas, however it isn't necessary.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Phemanderac
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3507
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #11 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 3:52pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 11:21am:
If the IPCC makes a claim, then is found wanting, the burden of proof for their claims still lies with them. It isn't like debating creationism, it's the opposite. Atheism is the null-hypothesis, exactly like climate skepticism. Sure you can find people who offer their own explanations, I'm trying to look for an article where some skeptics actually predicted the current temperatures with their own model, but can't remember where I saw it. Apart from that the null-hypothesis does not have the burden of proof, they can deconstruct an argument however and offer up their own ideas, however it isn't necessary.



Maybe the posts are not related, but, it seems to me that the post above yours is actually asking for the IPCC "claim" to be evidenced....

Now, it would seem that there is room for some burden of proof to back that claim up surely...

In short, if the IPCC makes a claim that is found wanting then absolutely the burden of proof is on them, but, by that same standard, if an individual makes a claim about what the IPCC has claimed, then, the burden of proof is on them... Otherwise, Doctor Jolly points out, the counter claims (Mini Ice ages, glaciers gone by 2035 just to point at two, however, there are several...) run the risk of being dismissed as simply being made up. Pretty easy stuff really.
Back to top
 

On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..
 
IP Logged
 
#
Gold Member
*****
Offline


A fool is certain: an
ignorant fool, absolutely
so

Posts: 2603
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #12 - Oct 14th, 2013 at 8:50pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:23am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:08am:
The funny thing is that he talks as though the science is settled and there is nothing left to argue about.



His alarmist colleague - Dana Nuccitelli- claims "Now that the science is settled that humans are causing global warming ... "
...

Didn't some credible body recently report 95-100% certainty that humans are the major cause of global warming?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Rider
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2669
OnTheRoad
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #13 - Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:46am
 

I'll look forward to the attacks on the author or host blog, as is their habit, and the continuation of the circular arguments of bullstish from the rusted on supporters of doom, doom and more doom....

Such confidence built on such narrow and misplaced foundations, what fools are these alarmists?


Another Reason Why IPCC Predictions (Projections) Fail. AR5 Continues to Let The End Justify the Unscrupulous Means


Posted on October 14, 2013      by Guest Blogger      


IPCC_progressionsNoble cause corruption in the process.

Guest essay by Dr. Tim Ball

Someone said economists try to predict the tide by measuring one wave. The IPCC essentially try to predict (project) the global temperature by measuring one variable. The IPCC compound their problems by projecting the temperature variable with the influence of the economic variable.

Use of circular arguments is standard operating procedures for the IPCC. For example, they assume a CO2 increase causes a temperature increase. They then create a model with that assumption and when the model output shows a temperature increase with a CO2 increase they claim it proves their assumption.

They double down on this by combining an economic model that projects a CO2 increase with their climate model projection. To make it look more accurate and reasonable they create scenarios based on their estimates of future developments. It creates what they want, namely that CO2 will increase and temperature will increase catastrophically unless we shut down fossil fuel based economies very quickly.

All their projections failed, even the lowest as, according to them, atmospheric CO2 continued to rise and global temperatures declined. As usual, instead of admitting their work and assumptions were wrong, they scramble to blur, obfuscate and counterattack.



One part of the obfuscation is to keep the focus on climate science. Most think the IPCC is purely about climate science, they don’t know about the economics connection. They don’t know that the IPCC projects CO2 increase on economic models that presume to know the future. Chances of knowing that are virtually zero as history shows.

See more myth busting at

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/10/14/another-reason-why-ipcc-predictions-projec...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Ajax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


CO2 has never controlled
temperature on Earth

Posts: 10982
Australia
Gender: male
Re: AGW contrarians owe us a (scientific) explanation
Reply #14 - Oct 15th, 2013 at 8:16am
 
Doctor Jolly wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 10:27am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:59am:
Doctor Jolly wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 9:27am:
Which predictions are wrong, and name some scientists who are scrutinising Newtons and Einsteins work at a macro level ?


The missing heat of the last 15 years in somewhere in the oceans.

There was no medieval warm period or mini ice age.



Can you give me IPCC links to these, because they sound like you've made them up:
Quote:
All glaciers would be gone by 2035.

All the ice in the arctic would be gone by 2013.

All natural disasters are caused from anthropogenic global warming.




I didn't say the IPCC predicted all of the above, but alarmists in general.

All I can say is thank goodness we have sceptics who jump on all IPCC and other alarmist propaganda to see whether they are bullshit or ok.

If we where all like the alarmist camp and accepted everything the IPCC and other alarmist organisations told us verbatim, imagine where the bugger we would be.

And lets not forget climategate, how anyone can put there faith in alarmist propaganda after they have been caught red handed has me dumbfounded.

Climategate emails
http://www.lavoisier.com.au/articles/greenhouse-science/climate-change/climatega...

IPCC predicted no glaciers by 2035
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jan/20/ipcc-himalayan-glaciers-mista...

Alarmists that predicted no ice in the arctic by 2012
http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/ice-free-arctic-forecasts/

IPCC predictions facts vs fiction
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/10/03/the-2013-ipcc-ar5-report-facts-vs-fictions...

IPCC computer circulation models get it wrong
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?action=post;num=1381688819;virboard=;quot...

Let’s quote the IPCC Prediction:

Quote:
“If emissions follow a Business-as-usual pattern"

Under the IPCC Business as Usual emissions of greenhouse gases the average rate of increase of global mean temperature during the next century is estimated to be 0.3C per decade (with an uncertainty range of 0.2C – 0.5C)” [IPCC FAR summary]


Quote:
5. In 2007, the AR4 made much of the fact that the warming trend over the previous 15 years exceeded 0.2°C/decade. In 2013, the AR5 plays down the fact that there is no significant warming at all during the previous 15 years. (But AR5 cites 0.05°C/decade without mentioning that this figure is ±0.14°C).

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/30/to-the-ipcc-forget-about-30-years/
Back to top
 

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 8
Send Topic Print